Ims replacement life

[particlewave]

Originally Posted by ltusler

If you see metal particles in the oil its too late to change the bearing.

If that were the case, then why would LN sell the IMS Guardian? By your statement, it is completely worthless marketing hype garbage. Not even close to true, but I see that you drank heavily of the JR brand kool-aid, so no point in further discussion.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by particlewave

If that were the case, then why would LN sell the IMS Gaurdian? By your statement, it is completely worthless marketing hype garbage. Not even close to true, but I see that you drank heavily of the JR brand kool-aid, so no point in further discussion.

The Guardian was targeted at the later (2005+) cars which could not be retrofitted in any case without a complete disassembly. Its purpose was to alert the owner to accumulating metal in the oil before the unit failed catastrophically, allowing some of the engine to be saved.

[DWBOX2000]

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

I think the conclusion is the 6 year is more a random warranty number than anything else. 75k will take me 20 years. Good stuff.

[Tcar]

Originally Posted by DWBOX2000

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

That's a good move.

Make sure you get the paperwork, warranty and the serial number of the bearing. (Check this before it is done. Also make sure you're not their first bearing.)
There is a 'sticker' with the LN serial number on it that can be placed on the driver's door jamb next to the VIN/Date sticker.

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.


I almost bought an '01 S from a guy that did his own IMS in his garage. Was a very, very nice car and the price reflected having the LN bearing.
But, he had no paperwork or even pictures of the process. Plus it was the only one he'd ever done.
So, I passed, as the only way I could be sure would be to pull the trans.
Nope.

[Tcar]

Originally Posted by DWBOX2000

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

I think the conclusion is the 6 year is more a random warranty number than anything else. 75k will take me 20 years. Good stuff.

Make sure they give you the warranty sheet.
That the work order has the serial number of the bearing on it.

And that you get the driver's door jamb serial number sticker - most people put it by the VIN sticker.

[ltusler]

Originally Posted by particlewave

If that were the case, then why would LN sell the IMS Gaurdian? By your statement, it is completely worthless marketing hype garbage. Not even close to true, but I see that you drank heavily of the JR brand kool-aid, so no point in further discussion.

Other than it seems you have an ax to grind and don't know what you're talking about as JFP showed.

[particlewave]

Originally Posted by ltusler

Other than it seems you have an ax to grind and don't know what you're talking about as JFP showed.

Being an engineer, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

My point is that I've watched 3 rebuilds in which JR and your fellow fanboys said that it wouldn't work due to failed bearing debris. All 3 are still running. If caught early through due diligence and proper filter/magnet check (or with the Guardian), and with proper tear down and cleaning, the engine is completely salvageable. It just takes a competent and willing person.
The Guardian may not have "been designed" for the 986, but it sure is marketed as such and plenty of 986/996 owners use them for that exact reason.

Now, I've read rennlist for years and am very familiar with your posts. I've witnessed you attacking some that question JR, resorting to name calling and accusations like, "I bet you don't even have a Porsche". I will not debate technical details with someone that has exhibited both zero technical background and the propensity to start hurling insults when his weak argument with no actual technical basis breaks down in the face of intelligence.

So...I'm just going to add you to my very short block list. The 986forum is better without that type of behavior.
Have a nice day!

[Fintro11]

Originally Posted by ltusler

If you see metal particles in the oil its too late to change the bearing.

Wrong, friend had his dual row in for clutch / ims. There was a bunch of metal in the ims tube bearing was just about to go. They cleaned it out did a few low km oil changes its been a year and the car is fine

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Fintro11

Wrong, friend had his dual row in for clutch / ims. There was a bunch of metal in the ims tube bearing was just about to go. They cleaned it out did a few low km oil changes its been a year and the car is fine

Your friend 's experience is vastly in the minority. We have on several occasions declined to retrofit cars because metal was found during the pre-inspection process. Of those cars which were subsequently retrofitted by others, to date, none have survived. While some lived longer than others, they all eventually succumbed, mostly to bearing failures. The worst one did not make it 50 miles.

Retrofitting one of these cars that already has metal in the oil is to take on a very long odds scenario; a few may win, but most do not.

[10/10ths]

......I'm new to the Porsche universe.

I'm 50 years old and have owned a Miata for 23 years.

I decided I wanted a Boxster.

I did a LOT of research. I actually work in the auto industry and have a good knowledge of auto manufacturing and how these vehicles work.

I decided that I wanted to own a 2004 "50 Years of 550 Spyder" edition Boxster S. I discovered the IMS issue. I found a car and bought her and then shipped her to Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations. If you go to his web site you can see the various preventative maintenance packages he offers.

I asked him to install his "IMS Solution", a new clutch, flywheel, water pump, rear main seal, spark plugs, serpentine belt and pulleys, Air/Oil Separator, and all three cam chain tensioners.

Yeah. A freaking boatload of money. He sent a great driver who flat bedded my car there and back for me.

Worth...Every....Penny.

A bargain at twice the price.

My wife and I have driven the car on four, cross-country road trips in the nine months I've owned the car. We didn't have to worry about the car.

IMS solution "expensive"? No. It's PRICELESS.

The IMS Solution in an oil fed, plain bearing. ZERO moving parts. Nothing to fail. It will outlast the engine and can actually be transferred to ANOTHER engine.

Just save up and INVEST in the IMS Solution.

Expensive? How much do you think a new engine or new Boxster costs? Not to mention your time and trouble and being without a ride.

Just do it and start enjoying life.

Good luck.

Welcome to the Boxster world. I'm NEVER selling this car. I love her, she makes me smile, and my wife and I are having more fun on our road trips in her.

Cheers!

[DWBOX2000]

Wow, I have created a firestorm. I am going to do it just as insurance. I highly doubt the original ims will fail. Just so I sleep better at night, I would rather spend 2k now then have something happen and end up with a 3k paper weight as some have referenced. To me it is like buying additional insurance to cover expenses incase your out of work for an extended period of time due to an accident. Likely you will never really need but nice knowing you have it.
I do agree with Particle Wave that there is a lot of fear mongering going on and that this is no way as prevalent as one is led to believe. You can't open a porsche magazine without seeing ims replacement ads. It's business, I get that. From the volume, one would think it is a mass epidemic impacting all Boxsters. Just The past Excellence user guide did a whole write up on it. It's everywhere. I sometimes admire the folks who don't get caught up in the whole porsche world of magazines and chat sites. They just buy and drive without a care in the world. For me, I have no defense, I am a sucker for good advertisement, some might say a fool. Did I make the right choice? I would say time will tell, but likely it really won't.

[DWBOX2000]

Next question, I dropped my car off this morning. Mechanic is recommended by LN. Very nice guy. He mentioned something about checking the pads that my friend who was there says keeps tension on the timing chains. "Deviation". Something like that. With my lack of explaining it, if you can tell what I am talking about; is this a common problem? He mentioned the ims and the pads being the big issues with these motors. Otherwise he spoke very highly of the Boxsters. Being on a limited budget, now I am nervous about this issue that I had never heard about 2 hours prior. It's not a matter of trust, he passed my sniff test. I am just curious the likely hood of this bring an issue. Any thoughts from you guys that do this for a living? Thanks.

[nowacuein]

Originally Posted by 10/10ths

......I'm new to the Porsche universe.



I'm 50 years old and have owned a Miata for 23 years.



I decided I wanted a Boxster.



I did a LOT of research. I actually work in the auto industry and have a good knowledge of auto manufacturing and how these vehicles work.



I decided that I wanted to own a 2004 "50 Years of 550 Spyder" edition Boxster S. I discovered the IMS issue. I found a car and bought her and then shipped her to Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations. If you go to his web site you can see the various preventative maintenance packages he offers.



I asked him to install his "IMS Solution", a new clutch, flywheel, water pump, rear main seal, spark plugs, serpentine belt and pulleys, Air/Oil Separator, and all three cam chain tensioners.



Yeah. A freaking boatload of money. He sent a great driver who flat bedded my car there and back for me.



Worth...Every....Penny.



A bargain at twice the price.



My wife and I have driven the car on four, cross-country road trips in the nine months I've owned the car. We didn't have to worry about the car.



IMS solution "expensive"? No. It's PRICELESS.



The IMS Solution in an oil fed, plain bearing. ZERO moving parts. Nothing to fail. It will outlast the engine and can actually be transferred to ANOTHER engine.



Just save up and INVEST in the IMS Solution.



Expensive? How much do you think a new engine or new Boxster costs? Not to mention your time and trouble and being without a ride.



Just do it and start enjoying life.



Good luck.



Welcome to the Boxster world. I'm NEVER selling this car. I love her, she makes me smile, and my wife and I are having more fun on our road trips in her.



Cheers!

What did you pay for the "IMS Solution"?

[Smallblock454]

There are also other solutions available. For example this one from Germany. Maybe interesting for guys inside Europe.

Single row (ceramic):FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590103 - Reparatursatz Zwischenwelle "M96.Einzel Lager" CERAMIC -

Double row: FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590104 - Reparatursatz Zwischenwelle "M96.Doppel Lager" -

Toolkit: FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590109 - Werkzeug für Zwischenwellen-Lager (ZW) Reparatur -

They recommend to change it every 100.000 Km or with every clutch.

Regards, Markus

[B6T]

I feel confident with the choice I made. The 119k mile bearing I pulled from my engine was as tight as the replacement I installed so that's proof I need that the bearing design and my specific engine and vehicle usage will lead to another 119k on a plain 6204.

The ultimate solution is to eliminate the bearing altogether. As I said, Raby's IMS solution/plain bearing design is the best option for the M96. The only remaining problem is that you still have the rest of the M96 to deal with...

[mikefocke]

Is there a difference between the steel bearings used by Porsche and in the Pelican sold kits and ceramic bearings. Yes. Cost for one. But the design specs of the ceramic bearings from LN are way way beyond those of the steel ones. And the car owners experiences seem to bear this out.

Are all the Porsche used bearings the same? No. There were three Porsche-installed versions: Double row - good. Single row - worst. Large single row but not easily/cheaply replaceable - better.

LN initially suggested a shorter interval before replacement when they offered their first kits.

Why did they do that? Because initially they weren't able to install enough of their kits and get enough years and miles on them to give them a statistically valid measurement of how long they would last. As installations ran into the thousands and years and miles mounted, they gradually increased the recommended interval. The interval varies with which LN choice your engine accepts and the choice you make. Oh, by the way, LN/Flat6 have produced up to 4 different kit designs that might fit your engine. Some are expected to outlast the car and engine. Some are better than others. Costs are different.

Have there been failures of engines with LN bearings installed? Yes. Some were obvious amateur installations. Force them in sideways and see what happens with any bearing. Don't freeze them, almost sure to fail. Some were put in contaminated engines though the owner would never admit that. Some were even done days before selling the car by shysters. And they were a very few early in the production that showed problems when taken out in the shorter interval then suggested. LN asked for those back. Made good on their guarantee. Even changed one of their designs shortly after production started because of some very few early failures. Haven't seen that type of failure since. And some were installed in engines where the mounting holes for the IMS and the crankshaft weren't aligned with each other correctly from the factory or as the result of a prior failure.

I follow the IMS issue on 7 forums. Have for 7 years or so. Even so I guarantee I don't know it all. I can't recall a failure reported recently in an engine where the pre-installation qualification was done.

Lots of botched installations done by people who had not ever done something like this before.

If you stick with the LN recommended installer, insist on the pre-installation qualification inspections, and have a clean engine with a block where the mounting holes run true to each other, you should be fine. Some online instructions will lead you to big trouble just as they have others. Your approved mechanic will use LN's instructions and tools and may well have been to a class they teach with hands on experience taught by the guys who created to whole IMS replacement kit idea in the US.

Can you do it yourself? Some can. Some obviously couldn't.

LN has sold well over 10k of their kits.

Unfortunately, lots of loyalty driven posts have been seen in the forums on the IMS subject. Some advocacy based on personalities. Some defensiveness of a products reputation based on knowing things from talking to the installer.

Could some of the other bearing designs be better long term? Maybe but none has the years and miles of user experience supporting their claims like the LN products. And many ads seem IMHO to be marketing hype with claims that don't seem to be backed up by any evidence that I've seen of many successful installs with many years and miles.

How much to do/spend on preventative maintenance is up to you.

Ultimately, it is your car, your money, your choice. Good luck.

[Gelbster]

Thanks for the excellent review Mike.
Various vendors promoted their IMSB product on the Forums and have been interrogated by curious enthusiasts like me. When we identified possible deficiencies most just failed to respond. Except one company .They answered every question regardless how abusive the tone or how pseudo-knowledgeable the interrogator was. Sometimes the questions were relentless and to fully answer them, proprietary knowledge and research was disclosed. It does not take long to figure out which are the Engineers and which are mere marketers.

[AaronPDX]

$2K seems like a spurious number. There's a whole market out there that knows nothing about the IMS bearing. You should replace it as insurance against a very possible failure, but mostly replacing it provides a very real peace of mind. I certainly wouldn't do it expecting my resale value to go up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JFP in PA]

We have done some PPI's on cars with retrofits, and they do seem to add value as well as interest on the buyer's side. How much depends on the overall condition of the car, with IMS Solutions commanding the most money.

[Gelbster]

Agreed -assuming someone like JFP replaced the IMSB !
But in my case I should have bought a car still .with the original IMSB. Then replaced it myself. Instead I foolishly bought a car that had a replacement IMSB slapped in on an engine that would have failed it's Pre-Qualification checks.
The IMSB replacement is only as good as the Installer. The discussion of materials and designs is secondary in my experience.