Good Bye 996

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by jacabean

interesting point of view . I think it will be some time before we see cheap 997 cars . nice 996 examples such as the C4S are still north of 30K . The 997 cars seem to be much more solid and have a more desirable look as well .

check out the list of mods. the P.O. did along with a new LN IMS bearing (double row) , clutch and water pump just before i bought the car.

1. Champion motor sports 19" RG5B wheels
2. PSS9 coil overs , corner balanced
3. Front and rear gt3 sway bars with tarrett drop links
4. Suncoast headers
5. Fabspeed X pipe with 200 cell cats.
6 Porsche PSE mufflers
7. Evo motorsports intake
8. IPD plenum
9. Softronic ecu tune
10. B&M short shifter with Techart knob
11. Dectane LED tail lamps

Really cheap 996's are nearly always high mileage 996s (north of 100K on the odometer).
So it's easy to conflate high mileage with supposed "low desirability".
I'm already seeing high mile 997.1's dipping below $30K with regularity and this is only the first full year that the early 997.2's have come off warranty.
Each year will push down the prices of 997.1's at a faster clip since Porsche sold so many of this series, far more than the used car market can absorb.
With tens of thousands of these cars rolling around there will be a good % of owners that need quick cash and could care less that their 997 is more desirable than an earlier Porsche with a different looking interior.

And I have a feeling we'll be seeing a good representation of Texas 997.1 and 997.2's in the used car listings soon. The market forces that force some to sell quickly can turn on a dime.
As long as there's plenty of something in the market for re-sale its very difficult to predict how durable that resale value of a depreciating asset can be.

[tomonomics]

^^^^ Dude, you are all over the map with your suggestions.

Quote:
"The best option for an out of warranty Porsche is low mileage....Don't tip the scales in favor of one car over another because of options, #1 priority should be mileage..."

"...first 65-70K miles of ownership of my car: $500 in repairs, TOTAL.
Mileage after 70K miles up to the present 97K: $15K in repairs"

So you're all hot and heavy over a $25k 997 with 120k miles? Based on your own math, that works out to a $55,000 car with repairs in the next two years.

I agree with you, and hope that the 997 will be a great bargain in the next five years, but jeez it's tough to follow your posts from one thread to the next.

I love this site, but damn I wish the weather would improve so I could drive more and read less.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

997's will become $10K cars before you know it. The production numbers for all these water-cooled cars are just too high for the used car buyer to absorb.
There are some great deals in Porsche world coming our way. If a 997 C4S with only 30K miles can probably be negotiated down to $23k then it's only a matter of time..

By the same token, a $35K Panamera with 85K miles is only 2-3 years away... Porsche Panamera 4DR 64K miles $47K | eBay

[thstone]

Originally Posted by coreseller

Curious to hear your opinion of the 996 vs. your air cooled 911 Tom. Totally different animals I know but why did you choose to keep the SC vs. the 996?

Apples vs BBQ pulled pork. They are so different, its not even a fruit vs fruit comparison!

The 996 is modern, fast, and very capable. In performance terms, it beats the crap out of almost all air cooled 911's. The 996 is comfortable, fairly reliable, and looks good.

The SC is a throwback to the Golden Age of Porsche. While the performance is close to an early base Boxster, the driving experience is incredibly involving because very little is filtered; the steering is manual and in corners it seems you can feel individual rocks and creases in the cement; there is no ABS or traction control or PASM, so your foot that has to modulate the brake and throttle properly; the suspension is comfortable but not plush; and the gear shifter is long and uncertain. All of this makes for an incredibly exciting drive!

At the same time, I can see why some of this experience was filtered out over the ensuring years. The SC is not particularly luxurious nor is it a comfortable long distance cruiser. It was designed and built to be a sports car for driving fast and not much more.

In many ways, this single purpose focus has been lost over the many years as sports cars have come to be many more things than just sporting and must meet many more needs than just to be driven fast. I'm not saying that comfort and luxury are bad things - I like a well appointed, comfortable, fast car as much as anyone.

But what I am saying, is that the SC represents a Porsche from a time when a sports car wasn't expected to be luxurious or comfortable. The cars were expected to be drivers cars and that meant that trade-offs had to be made and owners were expected to understand and appreciate those trade-offs.

And right now, that is the kind of sports car that I want to drive. If I need a more comfortable and luxurious car, I have a couple of BMW's to choose from already in the driveway.

With all of that being said, if I had to own only one car, it would still be a 986 Boxster. The Boxster has more "sports car" in its DNA than the 996 and its reasonably comfortable. Its almost the perfect trade off of a modern sports car for an owner who lives a modern life.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by tomonomics

^^^^ Dude, you are all over the map with your suggestions.

Quote:
"The best option for an out of warranty Porsche is low mileage....Don't tip the scales in favor of one car over another because of options, #1 priority should be mileage..."

"...first 65-70K miles of ownership of my car: $500 in repairs, TOTAL.
Mileage after 70K miles up to the present 97K: $15K in repairs"

So you're all hot and heavy over a $25k 997 with 120k miles? Based on your own math, that works out to a $55,000 car with repairs in the next two years.

I agree with you, and hope that the 997 will be a great bargain in the next five years, but jeez it's tough to follow your posts from one thread to the next.

I love this site, but damn I wish the weather would improve so I could drive more and read less.

you're absolutely correct there. Cost of entry falls very low because of 1) excess supply and 2) the seller's desire to get out of before "the big wave" expensive high mileage repairs.
For most cars (but not all) there's no escaping deferred or impending maintenance/repairs. As they say you can pay now, you can pay later but you WILL pay.

And I do not think it will take five years for a 997 to become a bargain (in the cost of entry sense) because they already are. For instance, a 997.1 that has lived out most of its life in Southern California where the climate is mild year round or a Northeast Sunday driver that only made out of the garage two seasons a year. These cars can laugh at 120K miles while reducing "the big wave" to water pump, oil changes and maybe some new rear tires. As it happens, mild climate zip codes tend to be in desirable zip codes where the supply of 997's are higher than average. There's always someone selling their lightly used car below market and these cars go quickly obviously....that $25K 997 with 120K miles is already sold and tomorrow there will be another. Then on the other hand you have the rest of the model fleet driven on tough roads in extremes of heat and cold. For these there's no avoiding major maintenance repairs that tack on significant amounts to the cost of entry depressed by excess supply. Pick your Porsche wisely but its a buyer's market for the foreseeable future.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

By the same token, a $35K Panamera with 85K miles is only 2-3 years away... Porsche Panamera 4DR 64K miles $47K | eBay

Either the market really has little confidence in the durability of these engines off warranty or the streets are awash in Panameras and Panamera Coupes (991's).
But to be fair if you've looked at Bimmer, Range Rover and Merc resale, crude oil and expensive German cars are in the same boat.

[coreseller]

I'm sure Perfectlap will reply with the usual lengthy sonnet, but, quick search on Autotrader nationwide:

2001 through 2002 (middle third of production run) Porsche C4S Coupe, Manual Trans under 75k miles:

High $49995
Low $28995
Avg $36989


2007 through 2009 (middle third of production run) Porsche C4S Coupe, Manual Trans under 75k miles:

High $69000
Low $41995
Avg $55834

Yes they are asking prices and mostly dealers but the numbers are a far cry from previously mentioned figures. My guess is that the above figures are for prime examples rather than branded titles PL was referencing. I'm not really in tune with the market and am frankly surprised at the under $10k price for Tom's 996 C2, then again a mid to high $20's priced 997 C4S manual Coupe sounds like an absolute bargain to me.

[Porsche9]

Originally Posted by thstone

Apples vs BBQ pulled pork. They are so different, its not even a fruit vs fruit comparison!

The 996 is modern, fast, and very capable. In performance terms, it beats the crap out of almost all air cooled 911's. The 996 is comfortable, fairly reliable, and looks good.

The SC is a throwback to the Golden Age of Porsche. While the performance is close to an early base Boxster, the driving experience is incredibly involving because very little is filtered; the steering is manual and in corners it seems you can feel individual rocks and creases in the cement; there is no ABS or traction control or PASM, so your foot that has to modulate the brake and throttle properly; the suspension is comfortable but not plush; and the gear shifter is long and uncertain. All of this makes for an incredibly exciting drive!

At the same time, I can see why some of this experience was filtered out over the ensuring years. The SC is not particularly luxurious nor is it a comfortable long distance cruiser. It was designed and built to be a sports car for driving fast and not much more.

In many ways, this single purpose focus has been lost over the many years as sports cars have come to be many more things than just sporting and must meet many more needs than just to be driven fast. I'm not saying that comfort and luxury are bad things - I like a well appointed, comfortable, fast car as much as anyone.

But what I am saying, is that the SC represents a Porsche from a time when a sports car wasn't expected to be luxurious or comfortable. The cars were expected to be drivers cars and that meant that trade-offs had to be made and owners were expected to understand and appreciate those trade-offs.

And right now, that is the kind of sports car that I want to drive. If I need a more comfortable and luxurious car, I have a couple of BMW's to choose from already in the driveway.

With all of that being said, if I had to own only one car, it would still be a 986 Boxster. The Boxster has more "sports car" in its DNA than the 996 and its reasonably comfortable. Its almost the perfect trade off of a modern sports car for an owner who lives a modern life.

That's a great description of the SC. These cars even have their own distinct smells and sounds that can't be found in anything else. Coreseller, your 993 is still at it's core a 901, but with years of continued development which in my opinion gives you most of the experience the SC offers but has moved in the direction of doing more to try and appeal to more people while the performance envelope has increased dramaticly. Going from an SC to a 964 C4 I appreciated the extra grip, power, ABS, AC that worked, etc. but still got the air-cooled 911 experience. The 964 is the only car I owned that I would want to own again. I'd take a 993 too. For that to happen the last child will need to move out so I have the garage space.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by coreseller

I'm sure Perfectlap will reply with the usual lengthy sonnet, but, quick search on Autotrader nationwide:

2001 through 2002 (middle third of production run) Porsche C4S Coupe, Manual Trans under 75k miles:

High $49995
Low $28995
Avg $36989


2007 through 2009 (middle third of production run) Porsche C4S Coupe, Manual Trans under 75k miles:

High $69000
Low $41995
Avg $55834

Yes they are asking prices and mostly dealers but the numbers are a far cry from previously mentioned figures. My guess is that the above figures are for prime examples rather than branded titles PL was referencing. I'm not really in tune with the market and am frankly surprised at the under $10k price for Tom's 996 C2, then again a mid to high $20's priced 997 C4S manual Coupe sounds like an absolute bargain to me.

I thought you love sonnets. Or maybe it was haikus.

C4S is not a good model to choose to get the 30K foot view of market pricing because C4S are not nearly as common as C2. For instance, on Autotrader they typically represent only ~10% of 997.1's for sale. Ditto for 997.2's.

[coreseller]

Originally Posted by Porsche9

That's a great description of the SC. These cars even have their own distinct smells and sounds that can't be found in anything else. Coreseller, your 993 is still at it's core a 901, but with years of continued development which in my opinion gives you most of the experience the SC offers but has moved in the direction of doing more to try and appeal to more people while the performance envelope has increased dramaticly. Going from an SC to a 964 C4 I appreciated the extra grip, power, ABS, AC that worked, etc. but still got the air-cooled 911 experience. The 964 is the only car I owned that I would want to own again. I'd take a 993 too. For that to happen the last child will need to move out so I have the garage space.

Yeah, Tom replied with what I had expected, I just wanted to see what his thoughts were on a SC since I have never owned one. I purchased a 930 Turbo the latter part of last year and have since already sold it after dealing with a few niggly issues on it. I bought it somewhat on the fence as to keep it or flip it, a few drives after sorting things out on it and I was thoroughly not impressed thus I sold it and made some money. A late 70's / early 80's SC is still on my radar though. The more I drive the 993 the more I think it really is the answer to what I personally would enjoy the most, we'll see.

[coreseller]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

I thought you love sonnets. Or maybe it was haikus.

C4S is not a good model to choose to get the 30K foot view of market pricing because C4S are not nearly as common as C2. For instance, on Autotrader they typically represent only ~10% of 997.1's for sale.

A C4S is the model you referenced on the prior page "There are some great deals in Porsche world coming our way. If a 997 C4S with only 30K miles can probably be negotiated down to $23k then it's only a matter of time.. ", I was pulling up like models for comparison purposes.

[Perfectlap]

TheStone,
how are you with the rotary buffer?

Porsche 911 | eBay

[The Radium King]

you know, I hear all these stories about cheap 996 and 997s. I've been on the hunt for an engineless 996 or 997 for a few months now and can't find much of anything.

instead there's stuff like this:

http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/860566-1999-porsche-911-996-manual-aero-kit-salvage.html

and this:

http://www.planet-9.com/classifieds.php?listing=2005-boxster-s-blown-engine-183328

something is off, i'm just not sure what.

[Perfectlap]

^ list price and actual sale price seem to live on opposite sides of the coin.

Perhaps this is why we see thousands of water-cooled Porsches sitting on Autotrader week after week. On Ebay, seeing a 10 year old car miss a lofty reserve price after a week's bidding seems de riguer. Now when the economy tanked in 2009, list price and sale price weren' so far apart. People were trying to get money to the bank ASAP.

[Porsche9]

Originally Posted by coreseller

Yeah, Tom replied with what I had expected, I just wanted to see what his thoughts were on a SC since I have never owned one. I purchased a 930 Turbo the latter part of last year and have since already sold it after dealing with a few niggly issues on it. I bought it somewhat on the fence as to keep it or flip it, a few drives after sorting things out on it and I was thoroughly not impressed thus I sold it and made some money. A late 70's / early 80's SC is still on my radar though. The more I drive the 993 the more I think it really is the answer to what I personally would enjoy the most, we'll see.

993 IMO is really hard to beat. What did not impress you about the 930? That turbo motor and the four speed makes it a really different beast.

[coreseller]

Originally Posted by Porsche9

993 IMO is really hard to beat. What did not impress you about the 930? That turbo motor and the four speed makes it a really different beast.

Coincidentally the horsepower figures for an '87 930 Turbo and a '96 993 N/A car are identical, 282 with a little extra torque going to the turbo under boost. What I did not like about the 930;

-It felt wheezy unless in boost
-Unpredictable nature of when boost hit
-I had it made out in my mind to be more than it was or possibly could be if that makes sense
-When comparing it to the 993 it plain sucked to drive, 993 is more substantial and solid feeling (that may of been the two particular examples)

You hit pretty close to home with...."That turbo motor and the four speed makes it a really different beast. "

I guess I'm getting old and soft lol..........:ah:

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

TheStone,
how are you with the rotary buffer?

Porsche 911 | eBay

Hah! You are on the same page as a few of my other friends who suggested this car for my next project....

[thstone]

Originally Posted by coreseller

Coincidentally the horsepower figures for an '87 930 Turbo and a '96 993 N/A car are identical, 282 with a little extra torque going to the turbo under boost. What I did not like about the 930;

-It felt wheezy unless in boost
-Unpredictable nature of when boost hit
-I had it made out in my mind to be more than it was or possibly could be if that makes sense
-When comparing it to the 993 it plain sucked to drive, 993 is more substantial and solid feeling (that may of been the two particular examples)

You hit pretty close to home with...."That turbo motor and the four speed makes it a really different beast. "

I guess I'm getting old and soft lol..........:ah:

I drove a friends 930 and I hate to say it, but it kind of sucked for all of the reasons above. You hit it right on the nail.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

Hah! You are on the same page as a few of my other friends who suggested this car for my next project....

But my '69 is only $12K. (they get more spendy the more you have to do right?)

You can bang this out in a weekend with the Metabo.

[jacabean]

i got an easy weekend project for you

1984 Porsche 930 Turbo M505 Slope Nose Slant Project