What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

[sb01box]

[QUOTE=epapp;367111]Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.


automobile application may be different from high speed servo, but I was informed that the "grease" portion was natural or paraffin and is added to hold the oil. that oil is the lubricant.

[Jake Raby]

Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

Or its potentially Debris Oil Feeding the component, catalyzing the chances of failures.

Who knows, tons of mouse traps out there now. I remember when there were none and we had to create the first one.

Fishing lures catch more fisherman than fish.

[Bigsmoothlee]

Originally Posted by epapp

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

[epapp]

Originally Posted by Bigsmoothlee

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

Of course I do all my own work, short of mounting the tires to the rims. Although my friend claims he mounts tires with a sledge hammer and lots of pushing. Somehow it doesn't sound like thats the right thing to do with Porsche rims.

I'm not broke (but I would always do my own work before paying someone else to do it), and I have no reason to pull the transmission until next summer to put in my new clutch. If I needed to (or had signs of RMS/IMS failure) I would pull it in a heartbeat.

That being said, wouldn't an IMS bearing health solution be easy and nice if you didn't need to remove anything for it to work??

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by Topless

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."

[epapp]

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by epapp

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

Then no offence mate but I call it BS. You wouldn't be one of those jealous LN Engineering competitor by any chance?!

Let me call my mates in Milton Keynes at the RedBull R&D.... I'll email you back a job application form. Quit school NOW if you already know better is my best advice.

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by Topless

This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."

[JFP in PA]

It does not matter what triggers it. What the Guardian will do is alert you to the fact that there is substantial ferrous grit accumulating in the oil system; regardless of where it comes from, it is an extreme danger to the engine and requires immediate cessation of running the engine until it can be examined to find out why it was triggered. Without it, you would blindly continue to grind the Hell out of the internal components until total failure occurred. Could be an IMS issue, could be a cam or cam follower coming apart, could be a rod or main failing, or any one of a number of common failure points; but it still would be caught before it tore the engine apart, and possibly allow the engine to be saved.

[Topless]

Are we a little grouchy today epapp?? Sheesh! I sent you to that Feelyx thread in your quest for bearing #s, not because I thought he found the Holy Grail. Sheesh!



Remember the first rule of business success: People buy from sellers they like. Smile and be nice. Show appreciation when others round up data on your behalf. It works.

[epapp]

Haha, well it certainly wasn't written in a grouchy tone. More so I was miffed that a guy with all the right equipment to do a good bearing test wasn't doing it properly! (Seriously, how could anyone think that testing a bearing for 200+ days with no load would be any comparison to a M96 IMSB??)

But I just couldn't understand how the OP could gather such a following when all the effort he was putting fourth was going to waste (at least from what I saw, maybe he did add a load to the bearing later).

I also don't plan to make a living from this idea I have, but I do hope it to help many other people. Buuuut, if someone wants to send me a new coolant reservoir, you'll get the first of my IMSB health concoctions

[runjmc2]

While I believe the laws of Physics are laws in the real world there can be so many variables and conditions that the laws are difficult, impractical or impossible to apply.

I recall a long discussion with a PhD in Physics that could not explain why countersteering a motorcycle works, and even questioned that it does work.

In my book best idea wins! Best luck to all that try to solve these problems and please hurry up my double row has 104K mi and I am too cheap to change it before clutch time.

[Topless]

This is actually getting quite comical. "Real engineering"... please.

At every PCA event I am surrounded by successful engineers, business owners, physicists, medical doctors, rocket scientists, race team owners, and F1 engine suppliers. The ones who build on the groundwork laid by those with years of hands-on experience and apply their specialized skills are thriving. The ones who ignore or discount those with the most direct hands-on experience go nowhere fast.

Carry on.

[Mark_T]

Yeah, I was kinda interested in what young Ponder Stibbons here had to say, right up until the "real engineering" comment. Could be just me, but I thought that was a tad arrogant.

Btw, will this be called the ePap test?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Mark_T

Yeah, I was kinda interested in what young Ponder Stibbons here had to say, right up until the "real engineering" comment. Could be just me, but I thought that was a tad arrogant.

Btw, will this be called the ePap test?

Us ignorant bumpkins have no idea what we are doing.............

[epapp]

Skeptic or not, stick around.

Yes it is arrogant to say real engineering...blah blah blah. We are allow working towards the same goal here, I just have to make myself feel like my solution is better so I will actually build the damn thing.

I will promise one thing: my IMSB health monitoring solution will be conclusive. If I release it, it will be because the data is reasonably accurate and can be replicated.

Once I can judge my IMSB health, I will probably need to crowd source for some more data. Since I don't have 10 boxsters laying around, I'll need a way to gather data of different IMSB healths to make any kind of judgement.


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[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by epapp

Skeptic or not, stick around.

Yes it is arrogant to say real engineering...blah blah blah. We are allow working towards the same goal here, I just have to make myself feel like my solution is better so I will actually build the damn thing.

I will promise one thing: my IMSB health monitoring solution will be conclusive. If I release it, it will be because the data is reasonably accurate and can be replicated.

Once I can judge my IMSB health, I will probably need to crowd source for some more data. Since I don't have 10 boxsters laying around, I'll need a way to gather data of different IMSB healths to make any kind of judgement.


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Be prepared to force an engine failure under controlled conditions with the system employed. I sacrificed two engines during the development of the IMSG, one of which was specifically built to be killed by installing an IMSB into it that was already at stage 3 IMSB failure.

If you need to gather this data and gather the data I do have these engines in my lab and they are available. Currently one of them is being used for similar research, so a compound test may be possible.

Projections and assumptions don't cut it.

But it wouldn't be cheap.

[epapp]

I wouldn't necessarily need to force engine failure, I just would like to test with more than one engine. Only testing the system on my bearing will still show the health of my bearing, no other information needed. My system will not rely on known failure modes to function properly.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by epapp

I wouldn't necessarily need to force engine failure, I just would like to test with more than one engine. Only testing the system on my bearing will still show the health of my bearing, no other information needed. My system will not rely on known failure modes to function properly.

Opinions may vary.

I had a deep desire to see exactly how much run time would occur after an IMS alert was initiated, before the engine had symptoms otherwise and then how much longer it would take to scatter parts.

I felt that development wasn't complete until I had experienced failure and knew how the system would both perform and respond.

Like I said, I'd spend the time and money on a patent search. You might just find something that will surprise you, and find it from a surprising source.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by epapp

I wouldn't necessarily need to force engine failure, I just would like to test with more than one engine. Only testing the system on my bearing will still show the health of my bearing, no other information needed. My system will not rely on known failure modes to function properly.

Coming from a GP paddock in Superbike racing, from what's left to me to tell publically is the LN Guardian idea is already widely utilized by all manufacturers doing r&d protoyping and race-ready machinery. A tad bit more advanced however! Real-time oil analysis and monitoring have been necessary for more than two decade already. Today tho... many "commercial" and "cheap" sensors are already able to trigger based on detection of oxidation, additives, thermal changes and various other physical or chemical properties. This technology was possibly coming from your (great phd) professor team (thank you) of course but sadly for you it can already be found in today's commercial shelves everywhere.

So please, don't make us wait for the 986 "adapted" kit!

A PIC programed based microcomputer (or an open sourced Arduino?!), a simple modern sensor with a 14*1mm threaded end, and 3.3v, is what you simply need to put together for your super "Porsche Complete Real-Time (all) Fluid Monitoring System". Oil, coolant, you could also sensor'ed the windows washer fluid.

And what else... oh yea; FAK sensors - they are often stupid! I'd rather just have my $3k backup 986 engine sitting in my garage and I think I also have about 7 other backup motors meant for both my race-ready superbike and practice track bike.