Go Back   986 Forum - for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners > Porsche Boxster & Cayman Forums > Boxster General Discussions

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2013, 01:15 AM   #1
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

I'm doing some research which could yield a smart way to evaluate IMS health (at least smarter than two pins which light up a LED when connected by metal shavings) and , real time, give you the ability to see that the bearing is failing (without looking at it!). Needless to say there are many ways. I've looked around for the part number and manufacture of the dual row IMS bearing but haven't found anything.

Ultimately I need some technical specs of the bearing and without being able to take my bearing out to test with (its my DD), I need a data sheet or two. Anybody have any information on it?

epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 01:42 AM   #2
Registered User
 
Steve Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,522
Porsche use many manufacturers of bearings - SKF, FAG, NSK, etc, etc, basically which ever bearing supplier won the supply contract for that year.
They can be sourced from Japan, Great Britain, Poland or the Republic of China........
__________________
2001 Boxster S (triple black). Sleeping easier with LN Engineering/Flat 6 IMS upgrade, low temp thermostat & underspeed pulley.
2001 MV Agusta F4.
Steve Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 03:28 AM   #3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by epapp View Post
I'm doing some research which could yield a smart way to evaluate IMS health (at least smarter than two pins which light up a LED when connected by metal shavings) and , real time, give you the ability to see that the bearing is failing (without looking at it!). Needless to say there are many ways. I've looked around for the part number and manufacture of the dual row IMS bearing but haven't found anything.

Ultimately I need some technical specs of the bearing and without being able to take my bearing out to test with (its my DD), I need a data sheet or two. Anybody have any information on it?
You are reinventing the wheel, the Guardian is simple, and works : IMS Guardian | IMS Guardian. The first advanced warning system for Intermediate Shaft (IMS) failures!
__________________
Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

Last edited by JFP in PA; 10-10-2013 at 03:54 AM.
JFP in PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 01:00 PM   #4
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

A teaser: involves working with a tenured PHD at my school who specializes in internal combustion engine vibrations and friction surfaces in camshafts inside F1 engines.

When I solve this simple problem, I will share the wealth. Until then, I need the info on the pressure breakdown of the dual row IMSB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 01:01 PM   #5
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tinker View Post
Porsche use many manufacturers of bearings - SKF, FAG, NSK, etc, etc, basically which ever bearing supplier won the supply contract for that year.
They can be sourced from Japan, Great Britain, Poland or the Republic of China........
I figured it would be SKF, but does anyone have their old bearing or pictures of the old bearing? I'm trying to find a video which has a shot of the part number on the side of the OEM IMSB


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 01:36 PM   #6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 231
What is the rational for focusing on the dual row? The data (though suspect as always) suggests that the failure rate of the single row is much higher.

I thought I recall seeing a detailed paper on the bearing(s) used,but have not recently seen it....will look again.

Sounds like a worthy effort!
runjmc2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #7
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
The reason for the dual row focus is because my car has a dual row

The solution to assessing the health of the bearing is so damn simple, and I can't believe I just thought of how to do it yesterday. Needless to say, after I brought it up to my PI (the phd engine guy), he too immediately said there is such a simple solution, and its the same idea I had. It requires math and stuff, but hey, thats why I'm in graduate school.

If you had that paper that would be most excellent. I could solve my problem if I could just pull my bearing out. (anybody got an old bearing to send to me?)
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 02:09 PM   #8
Registered User
 
ppbon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 529
If you don't want the bearing to fail, install the DOF, but here's the info ...

... you asked for:

Dual Row bearing
NSK BD20-17
6204DUA17



Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is: Racecar!
ppbon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Coral Springs, FL USA
Posts: 96
And here's mine, recently removed from a 2000 Boxster S.
MitchSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 02:17 PM   #10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 231
I believe the paper I recall was from LN, but I do not currently see it on their site. A lot of information if you have not been there, also links on the same page....

IMS 101 | IMS Retrofit
runjmc2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 03:54 PM   #11
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
These are excellent, thanks! Any way you could retake with better lighting so I can see all the numbers? I can see the NGK manufacture, this is a great start. Maybe you could just type the numbers you see into a response?
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 03:56 PM   #12
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
Oops, i now see the numbers! Thanks much


Quote:
Originally Posted by ppbon View Post
... you asked for:

Dual Row bearing
NSK BD20-17
6204DUA17



Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 04:08 PM   #13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by epapp View Post
I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.
I would not be so quick or dismissive of the Guardian design; the technology has been around for decades and is in wide use on mission critical engines such as combat aircraft. The Guardian also has a rather substantial installed base, which has also demonstrated its effectiveness in spotting the onset of IMS bearing failures.
__________________
Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
JFP in PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 09:00 AM   #14
Registered User
 
ganseg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 83
subscribing! I am hoping for something that doesn't require me to pull the transmission and is less money than the Guardian. Six months till my next track day!
ganseg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 10:14 AM   #15
Track rat
 
Topless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cucamonga CA
Posts: 3,658
Garage
This might be the most complete thread on IMS including part #s of various model years. Feelyx was developing a direct oil feed when his patent was bought out. Lots of good info on bearings and failure modes here.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS
__________________
2009 Cayman 2.9L PDK (with a few tweaks)
PCA-GPX Chief Driving Instructor
Topless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #16
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 03:59 PM   #17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 5,157
It does not matter what triggers it. What the Guardian will do is alert you to the fact that there is substantial ferrous grit accumulating in the oil system; regardless of where it comes from, it is an extreme danger to the engine and requires immediate cessation of running the engine until it can be examined to find out why it was triggered. Without it, you would blindly continue to grind the Hell out of the internal components until total failure occurred. Could be an IMS issue, could be a cam or cam follower coming apart, could be a rod or main failing, or any one of a number of common failure points; but it still would be caught before it tore the engine apart, and possibly allow the engine to be saved.
__________________
Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

Last edited by JFP in PA; 10-11-2013 at 06:44 PM.
JFP in PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 06:52 PM   #18
Track rat
 
Topless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cucamonga CA
Posts: 3,658
Garage
Are we a little grouchy today epapp?? Sheesh! I sent you to that Feelyx thread in your quest for bearing #s, not because I thought he found the Holy Grail. Sheesh!



Remember the first rule of business success: People buy from sellers they like. Smile and be nice. Show appreciation when others round up data on your behalf. It works.
__________________
2009 Cayman 2.9L PDK (with a few tweaks)
PCA-GPX Chief Driving Instructor
Topless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 07:35 PM   #19
Registered User
 
epapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 700
Garage
Haha, well it certainly wasn't written in a grouchy tone. More so I was miffed that a guy with all the right equipment to do a good bearing test wasn't doing it properly! (Seriously, how could anyone think that testing a bearing for 200+ days with no load would be any comparison to a M96 IMSB??)

But I just couldn't understand how the OP could gather such a following when all the effort he was putting fourth was going to waste (at least from what I saw, maybe he did add a load to the bearing later).

I also don't plan to make a living from this idea I have, but I do hope it to help many other people. Buuuut, if someone wants to send me a new coolant reservoir, you'll get the first of my IMSB health concoctions

Last edited by epapp; 10-11-2013 at 07:39 PM.
epapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 09:58 PM   #20
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by epapp View Post
I would beg to differ. It has a very slim chance of working properly. There are so many areas of internal combustion which create ferrous metal shavings. There is a much simpler way and it is much more accurate.

A teaser: involves working with a tenured PHD at my school who specializes in internal combustion engine vibrations and friction surfaces in camshafts inside F1 engines.

When I solve this simple problem, I will share the wealth. Until then, I need the info on the pressure breakdown of the dual row IMSB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
That's just it. The IMS Guardian is really an engine guardian. If any engine sees enough ferromagnetic wear metals to initiate an Alert, those levels are indicative of some other form of failure that's imminent.

To date the IMSG has saved engines with timing chains failing, lifters failing, valve springs failing and more. All of these failures have the potential to rival IMSB failure in regard to collateral damages.

The fact that the IMSG can sense more than an IMSB failure is not a con, it's a plus. Especially when an engine has 24 other documented modes of failure other then the IMSB.

Interesting to see what you've thought of.. Considering your question in the thread here I have a pretty good idea already. You might want to carry out a patent search sooner rather than later.

__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page