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Old 06-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #1
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Only error code P1411

CEL came on a few minutes after initial start up in the morning. Using an Actron scanner only code P1411 (Secondary Air Injection System, bank 2 below limit). Based on quick research this typically appears with P0411 (the other bank). My summary of quick research is:

1. The SAI system is solely for emissions on start up
2. These errors do not affect performance or reliability
3. The associated system has several component and failure points that can be difficult to troubleshoot and when improperly diagnosed can lead to unnecessary replacement of expensive parts
4. Many have made changes to the ECU to eliminate the code from being displayed and/or completely removed and plug the system...some believe this can lead to damaging the cats

My questions are:
1. Is this summary correct?
2. Based on getting only one error code, does this simplify the troubleshooting....e.g. many of the parts/failure point would seem to affect the entire system and produce both codes?
3. After clearing the code, what are the chances that this was an isolated event and does not re-occur


Any input great appreciated. Thanks!

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Old 06-25-2013, 06:48 PM   #2
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Your assessment is mostly correct. The fact that the CEL came on shortly after startup would suggest a secondary system leak or blockage such that extra air isn't being pumped into bank 2. To your questons...

Yes, the secondary air system is to reduce emissions during the first 90 seconds of running a cold engine.

Yes, the errorsdon't materially affect performance or reliability

Yes, problems can be hard to diagnose, but more experienced shops can do a pretty good job of it.

No, I wouldn't say a lot have people have converted their cars to ROW (rest of the world) settings. There are a couple of reasons for saying this. One, converting the car to ROW settings can lead to one failing the smog test in certain states. Two, it's hard to do without the proper computer to re-program the ECU.

My advice. Clear the code and see if it stays off for an extended period. The ECU doesn't monitor the secondary air system for several driving cycles after the codes are cleared. So it can be a few days before monitoring begins again. If the CEL stays off, then it might have been an anomaly. If it comes back on, find a good diagnostic shop and ask them if they can vacuum test the SAI. This is different than trying to find a leak. If the system holds a vacuum, then the problem is more likely a blocked air line. If the secondary air pump itself isn't working, don't buy a new one because they are outrageously expensive. Buy a used one from a dismantler for about $200 bucks.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:01 PM   #3
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My crystal ball says you have a broken vacuum line between the Electric Change-Over Valve and the Air Change-Over Valve.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:13 AM   #4
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Great information, THANKS!!!

Based on this, if the CEL comes back I will check the vacuum line noted and inspect the overall system. If I can't find anything I will ask my Indy to take a look at my next oil change and take action if the diagnosis seems rational and the repair feasible.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:24 AM   #5
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Your assessment is correct.

A competent shop should be able to isolate the cause of the CEL and fix it.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:36 AM   #6
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Not that everyone is on the edge of their seat on how this came out, but at least for people that come across this researching in the future....

I cleared the error code on Tuesday night, drive it daily and through today (Friday) it has not come back on....hope I'm in the clear....
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runjmc2 View Post
Not that everyone is on the edge of their seat on how this came out, but at least for people that come across this researching in the future....

I cleared the error code on Tuesday night, drive it daily and through today (Friday) it has not come back on....hope I'm in the clear....
I wanna know if it comes back on. I cleared mine and it took about 2 weeks to come back, and i also drive mine daily
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #8
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Unfortunately, they usually don't fix themselves. Although it may take some time for the right combination of conditions to occur again, the CEL is highly likely to come back.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:27 AM   #9
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As of today (around 2 weeks), with daily driving at least during the week, it still has not come back on. I will update if/when it reoccurs or if I am able to determine the issue. Thanks again!
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:53 AM   #10
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IIRC the secondary air system does not turn on when the outside air temperature is above a certain threshold temperature. I don't recall what the threshold is, but I suspect its below summertime temperatures in AZ. And unless the SAI system turns on, you won't get a CEL triggered by a SAI leak until the SAI system runs.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:37 PM   #11
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Wow. Perfect timing. I got the same CEL this morning within the first 90 seconds of driving. I cleared the code and understand (based on this thread) why I am not immediately seeing anything come back.

I just picked up the car (2001 base, AT, 103k mi) last Friday, and the dealer said there were no previous CELs in the recent few months.

I shall monitor and see.

Thanks for starting this very relevant thread.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:18 AM   #12
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Delete code see if it comes back. On very hot days it may not come back as SAI won't run at certain temp/conditions.
If it comes back start with the easy ones...
Have car in cooler place...garage etc and start car with engine lid open. Put your had on SAI pump and you should feel/hear it run...you can't miss it if it runs...
If it runs, check the 1inch diameter hose that runs from SAI into the engine. That hose sometimes rubs on the intake runner over the years and can form a small hole leading to a leak.
If those are all good, take serp belt off and take alternator out(2 bolts and very easy to remove). You'll have access to the SAI "system" and can visually check the SAI component hoses...
It could be one of the 4-5 vacuum hoses...or elec valve or mech. valve.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:15 AM   #13
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Thanks - very helpful.

Is there a picture or instructions (like on the Pelican Parts forums) that you have found useful in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by geetee View Post
Delete code see if it comes back. On very hot days it may not come back as SAI won't run at certain temp/conditions.
If it comes back start with the easy ones...
Have car in cooler place...garage etc and start car with engine lid open. Put your had on SAI pump and you should feel/hear it run...you can't miss it if it runs...
If it runs, check the 1inch diameter hose that runs from SAI into the engine. That hose sometimes rubs on the intake runner over the years and can form a small hole leading to a leak.
If those are all good, take serp belt off and take alternator out(2 bolts and very easy to remove). You'll have access to the SAI "system" and can visually check the SAI component hoses...
It could be one of the 4-5 vacuum hoses...or elec valve or mech. valve.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:53 PM   #14
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I don't have a diagram on my computer but google...there's 2-3 picture/diagram from various sites like renn....
They have detailed diagrams.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:06 PM   #15
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Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geetee View Post
I don't have a diagram on my computer but google...there's 2-3 picture/diagram from various sites like renn....
They have detailed diagrams.
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Old 07-27-2013, 06:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runjmc2 View Post
Great information, THANKS!!!

Based on this, if the CEL comes back I will check the vacuum line noted and inspect the overall system. If I can't find anything I will ask my Indy to take a look at my next oil change and take action if the diagnosis seems rational and the repair feasible.
I live in Phoenix also. Who does your Indy work?
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:24 AM   #17
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I use Mcilvain Motors. Scott is well trained, has good experience, and great prices.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:46 AM   #18
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First cold day in a while yesterday (around 75 in the morning when I started it) and the light is back. I will be taking it in for an oil change as soon as I get the chance and will ask him to take a quick look. I may also use the above advise to take a look if I have the time...
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:38 AM   #19
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Here's a diagram of the secondary air system with the parts identified: Porsche Boxster Air Injection Parts.

With the code showing a problem on bank 2 side only, I'm wondering if the air tube (#7 in the diagram) might be blocked. It it was a vacuum leak or a change over valve, I would expect you'd get P0410 also.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:52 AM   #20
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Perfect, thank! I was hoping that being only one bank would simplify the troubleshooting.

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