IMS class action suit

[Ghostrider 310]

Noga I can't be sure about all cases but they did use their own lawyers in certain disputes, others I'm sure they farmed out.

[landrovered]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Extended warranties are for chumps, in the long run you do better without them. Again I refer you to the dealer scenario, if the dealer says "I'd get the extended warranty" then a wise buyer should check the ol google, eff the car fax. I have no plans on extending the factory warranty, either it makes it or it doesn't the coin I'm jangling is the warranty cost I squirreled away for repairs.

From another website

"I do have an aftermarket extended warranty with no deductible. It cost me $2700. I received a new remanufactured engine that, including labor charges, would have cost me $12,000. Buying the extended warranty was one of the smartest things I've ever done."

Some folks here might heed this guy's advice.

[cbbepop]

If the posts are referring to the extended warranty I mentioned, I do not mean the type of warranty that you purchase once your factory warranty runs out. Those are useless, more than half the time they don't cover it and the other half when they do cover it - you still have a to pay upfront then they will reimburse you later.

The extended warranty I was referring to that Porsche should have implemented a long time ago focusing on the IMS alone 100k or 10 year is like the warranties that Audi and BMW puts out.

For example, all Audi B7 chassis whether its A4, S4, quattro or FWD uses a cam follower in their HPFP. I'm not even sure what it does but the issue is that the coating on this "cup" wears out around 40-50,000 miles. Once it does, the entire HPFP is likely damaged with repair costs of around $2000-4000. This was a known issue to the Audi community and many new car buyers who frequent Audi forums were advised to go and swap out the cam follower regardless if its broken after a certain mileage as a preventive measure.

So Audi put out a no charge warranty saying regardless if its first owner or not, if the cam follower breaks then they will fix it. But it has to break first is the catch. Furthermore and I tip my hat off to Audi, the warranty says they will reimburse anyone who has already replaced the cam out of pocket prior to this warranty being announced provided the customer can show proof of work done and receipt from an indie shop. Amazing customer care.

[linklaw]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Noga I can't be sure about all cases but they did use their own lawyers in certain disputes, others I'm sure they farmed out.

I currently have several lawsuits pending against Ford Motor Company and they are using outside counsel. Over the years, I have sued Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen, Ford and Chrysler and they all used outside counsel. Of course, these cases were not class action lawsuits, but if the manufacturers are using (by my experience) outside counsel for smaller cases, I assume they would hire outside counsel for the larger ones as well.

[Ghostrider 310]

The single highest profit item I ever sold was the extended warranty, bar none. I decided to throw the dice, my engine has no IMS and so far runs like a Swiss watch. I like my odds for not having a second failure if I'm wrong I'll deal with it that day.

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

The single highest profit item I ever sold was the extended warranty, bar none.

FWIW, Warranty Direct included the Boxster in their list of "Top 100 Most Reliable Used Cars of the Past Decade" (albeit at position 100!): The 100 most reliable cars of the last decade (in order)

[MSW]

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? I'm considering a 98 with 84,000 km (Canada). Never driven in winter excellent condition. Yes or No?

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by MSW

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? I'm considering a 98 with 84,000 km (Canada). Never driven in winter excellent condition. Yes or No?

Maybe.....

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by MSW

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? I'm considering a 98 with 84,000 km (Canada). Never driven in winter excellent condition. Yes or No?

This wouldn't stop me, if the PO has an excellent set of receipts proving the car has been serviced. Whatever you pay for it don't plan on driving it away cost free, at that age it's going to have needs. As for the IMS, I'd change it with each clutch with the cheapest version and you should be good to go. Frankly, I don't think my car suffered an IMS I think it was the chain tensioners, I asked what it turned out to be but never received any definitive communication. I also think these are still fairly rare events lots of guys going right to 100K problem free.

[Mark_T]

Originally Posted by MSW

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? I'm considering a 98 with 84,000 km (Canada). Never driven in winter excellent condition. Yes or No?

Nope. If something bad happened to this one I would go right out and buy another. I've owned 30+ cars and I've never had a car that was this much fun to drive. It's a rush every time I've turn the key.

Mine is a '99. I bought it with 93000 km and now, four years later, it has 124,000 km.
I've spent money on the usual maintenance items - brakes, water pump, plugs - and a small fortune on optional cosmetic upgrades - top, seats, shifter, handbrake, steering wheel, headlights, tail lights - but I have had no actual mechanical failures except for a clutch line that ruptured when a small sharp piece of granite got wedged between the line and the body and sawed its way through. Not really the car's fault. It is the most reliable car I have ever owned.

I do not lie awake at night fretting about an imminent IMS detonation. I think it is highly unlikely to happen and, if it does, I'll just fix it.

Buy your Boxster - you will love it.

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by MSW

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? Yes or No?

"The plural of annecdote is not data" (anon)

I was aware of all of this when I bought my Boxster a little over three years ago, and nothing significant has come to light in the interim. You can now buy an IMS Guardian for about $400. Of course, you can buy a magnetic drain plug without sensor for less than 10% of that. Or you can put a plastic Jesus on your dash:


I have none of these, my oil filter is always clean, and I sleep great at night.

[Mark_T]

I went with Ganesh for my dash.

[Paul]

I've said it before, I will not buy another new Porsche until they offer (at an extra cost is acceptable) a 10 year 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty.

I really would like to buy one of those new Boxster Ss.........

[LAP1DOUG]

Originally Posted by linklaw

I currently have several lawsuits pending against Ford Motor Company and they are using outside counsel. Over the years, I have sued Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen, Ford and Chrysler and they all used outside counsel. Of course, these cases were not class action lawsuits, but if the manufacturers are using (by my experience) outside counsel for smaller cases, I assume they would hire outside counsel for the larger ones as well.

Please remind me not to ever sell anything to you sir.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

Man, you're just digging it deeper. Is that supposed to make sense?

As to your knowledge of the practices of the legal profession... okay. I stand corrected. Your suggestion that a corporation would litigate a major class action lawsuit (and believe me, they're all major) by using corporate counsel instead of retaining outside litigators sounded like someone who didn't know what they were talking about with respect to commercial litigation.

Wait... it still does!

Oh, such a clever fellow!

Okay, so I never practiced corporate law, was shooting from the hip on that one...so sue me. As far as I'm concerned, the matter of WHO represents them in a court of law is all but irrelevant to this discussion. It matters not a whit to me who represents them. My point, a secondary one, is that they have the resources to handle such matters with regard to both courtroom representation and with regard to fixing what they repeatedly screwed up in the vehicles powered by faulty M96 power plants. My primary point? HAD they had the decency to address the latter, the former would not even be an issue. They still could do this. Face the fact that there is a significant problem (albeit with an admittedly small number of their vehicles). Develop a corporate policy on owner-assistance in those cases, the details of which can be based on a myriad of factors for any given case: age of the vehicle, mileage, original owner vs second hand, maintenance records, etc. Don't make aggrieved owners grovel at the dealership level---that's not even fair to their own people, those making the sales and dealing with disgruntled owners. This policy could be reduced to some sort of formula-based approach, a sliding scale---they needn't throw a new crate motor into every car that dies a premature death due to a faulty design, nor do they need to compensate everyone who bought a car with an intermediate shaft---hell, if the thing blows at 150k virtually no one's gonna make a stink about it. A reasonable compromise is the key here, emphasis on the "reasonable." People---even those with vehicles that fall apart at 40k miles---can be reasonable when they're treated with decency and respect. When they get burned, they don't get bent out of shape when they are offered an evenhanded compromise. They DO get bent out of shape when, at the dealership level, they are handled in a patronizing manner, are offered empty platitudes, or, as in many cases, are simply blown off altogether. That's a pretty effective way to erode your future customer base---not only among the victims themselves, but among their friends and associates, friends of friends, etc.

Porsche is not going to go belly up on this, as some have suggested...of that I'm convinced. This is not about unfortunate souls being incinerated in vehicles with poorly designed fuel tanks. We're not talking about astronomical punitive damage awards here---we're probably not talking punitive damages at all. Simple restitution, that's all. I've talked to lots of people at various levels at a number of dealerships, and they offer the familiar slogan, the corporate line no doubt: it (IMSB) is an insignificant problem affecting an insignificant number of vehicles, and when it happens there are warning signs that allow owners to react and take corrective measures. That message just doesn't fly with someone whose IMSB failure---often with no warning (if what I've so often read on this board is accurate)---just rendered their vehicle virtually worthless. It's offensive...it's counterproductive...it's shameful...it's wrong. AND...it's beneath that Porsche heritage so many seem to hold in such high regard. And if the IMSB problem is as rare as all the Porsche reps I've listened to say it is, fixing it really shouldn't be that financially taxing for them should it?

And when I said I know what I need to know about these cars? What I was inarticulately trying to express in the short amount of time I had available to me was that I know what I need to know about these cars relative to the IMSB issue. I was in a hurry, had something important to attend to (aka going to work). So sue me again, I stand by the sentiment of my statements. NoGaBiker, are you a lawyer?...did I offend with the use of my "toady" adjective?? If so, my apologies...what can I say? I was on a roll, my fingers on the keyboard just sort of took over. It happens. I'll try to curb my sarcasm if you'll do the same. Deal??

I've had my Box for 7 years now. I STILL to this day drink in the beauty, the wonderful lines, of this car every time I walk into the garage, still eagerly anticipate the exhilaration of the next time I drive her. Sounds hokey, I know, but anytime I'm around it, I find myself whispering quietly, "Oh Baby, I do love this car." Unfortunately, I am much less impressed by the individuals running the company that makes it. And that's a real shame.

[johnsimion]

Originally Posted by landrovered

Ok, lets pretend that a class action is filed, everyone that bought a M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy. Would that make everyone feel better? What do you saber rattlers really want other than to ******************** and moan and complain?

Yes. If everyone who bought an M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy, so be it. They are no different than any other big corporation. Too bad so sad.

Of course, your Armageddon scenario would never happen, because (a) Porsche is rich as he!! and paying $400 per customer would be chump change for them, and (b) because they would settle for providing an extended warranty (that they ought to have done in the first place). The extended warranty would cost them nothing if the IMS is really as trouble free as certain people seem to believe. Yeah, the IMS is just a great engineering design. Because there were no IMS problems, Porsche itself changed the design over and over before abandoning it altogether. Uh huh.

These cars are not well engineered and the company has piss-poor customer relations. They deserve what they get. It's not just the IMS, it's also D-chunks and slipped sleeves on the old ones, and now oil starvation and scored cylinders on the new ones. It's installing seatbacks on the 986 that are so short that tall people can hit their head directly on the rollbar in a rear-end collision. It's steering that can't make a sharp turn in reverse in winter without making a sound like an explosion. It's frunks that can't open to replace a dead battery without a huge rigamarole -- because they opted for an electronic opener instead of a simple wire. It's convertible tops on the 986 that can't fold if the temperature is cold because the cheap SOBs put a plastic window -- same technology as a 1960 MGB. It's the dealer who delivers your brand new car with cosmoline on the wheels and then the service manager tells you (after keeping the car all day) that you have to have another appointment to have the wheels repainted (it's OK, another forum taught me to fix that myself!).

IMHO they get by with murder because they produce a good-looking, fun car to drive and they've got a great publicity department, but legend notwithstanding, they are not just Hans and Dieter working in a garage to build cars for the benefit of all mankind. They are just another big corporation out to maximize their profits, and they actually brag that they are the most profitable car company in the world. And they are doing it unhindered because of the attitude of certain people who buy into the hype, overlook all their faults, cover for them, and actually feel sorry for them if anyone suggests they actually take responsibility for their own actions. It's pathetic, but it's the power of hype.

[Coffinhunter]

I mean this as a legit question.

My 2003 S only has 26,000 miles on it (Not a daily driver until now). I expect to put a lot mre miles on it in the near future. After reading this site, and many others, I first got a little paranoid about the IMS bearing failure. However, the more I read, the more it looks like it is about a 1-4% failure rate. Sure when it fails it REALLY sucks, but it is not that common.

So now this thread is talking about a class action case and I just can't see that holding up. At worst let's say the 4% is the actual failure rate. How many products in the world have a greater failure rate than that? Honestly?!

We choose to drive expensive cars. They are not the most expensive out there, but if you don't want high cost maintenence or repairs, buy a Ford Fusion. I would be willing to bet they have a 4% failure rate on a major component. And I am a Ford guy (other than my Porsche). My wife had a 1995 (I think) Town & Country Mini van. The transmission went out at 38,000 miles (2,000 after warranty of course). Looked around the tranny shop and there were a ton of dodge/chrysler mini vans. No class action though.

Here is a quick internet search on failure rates, all above the Boxster IMS:

Repair rates for 3- to 4-year-old products.
Product Repair Rate
Laptop computer 43%
Refrigerator: side-by-side, with icemaker and dispenser 37
Rider mower 32
Lawn tractor 31
Desktop computer 31
Washing machine (front-loading) 29
Self-propelled mower 28
Vacuum cleaner (canister) 23
Washing machine (top-loading) 22
Dishwasher 21
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, w/ icemaker 20
Gas range 20
Wall oven (electric) 19
Push mower (gas) 18
Cooktop (gas) 17
Microwave oven (over-the-range) 17
Clothes dryer 15
Camcorder (digital) 13
Vacuum cleaner (upright) 13
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, no icemaker 12
Range (electric) 11
Cooktop (electric) 11
Digital camera 10
TV: 30- to 36-inch direct view 8
TV: 25- to 27-inch direct view 6

* SquareTrade

So enjoy the ride!

[Mark_T]

As a counterpoint, my wife's 2006 Corolla has never ever needed a single unexpected repair. We have replaced the battery and the brake pads, once, and that's it. For a city-driven, winter-driven daily driver in a northern climate I think that's pretty impressive. However, to put that into perspective, I absolutely hate driving that soulless crapcan and wouldn't even briefly consider it as a car for myself. I'd rather take the bus.

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by Mark_T

As a counterpoint, my wife's 2006 Corolla has never ever needed a single unexpected repair. We have replaced the battery and the brake pads, once, and that's it. For a city-driven, winter-driven daily driver in a northern climate I think that's pretty impressive. However, to put that into perspective, I absolutely hate driving that soulless crapcan and wouldn't even briefly consider it as a car for myself. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm glad someone said it! We choose to drive expensive cars, yes but we also buy them with the thought process that diligent maintenance and careful driving will yield longevity. The "expense" should not all be the handling and style, the car has to be reliable otherwise what exactly is the premium price tag all about? My "junker" was never even in the rain unless I was caught in it.

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by Coffinhunter

However, the more I read, the more it looks like it is about a 1-4% failure rate. Sure when it fails it REALLY sucks, but it is not that common.

And there are some things you can do to reduce that individual probability (change oil, check filter, magnetic drain plug, IMS Guardian, IMSB).

More importantly, there are things you can do to mitigate a catastrophic loss, the most obvious of which are to purchase an aftermarket warranty, use the Porsche dealer for maintenance (building goodwill) - or else sell the car and purchase something else with a warranty.

But the crux of this whole thead is that there are people who don't want to invest in the former, don't want to mitigate, but still want to be compensated. There are also folks who move into a flight path, and then try to get the flight path moved or runway shut down. They are pursuing something in their own self interest, and trying to suck you in to their venture.