So Long, Farewell, auf Wiedersehen, Adieu…

[jmatta]

You seem to know these cars pretty well, any other pearls you'd like to share?

The 964s have been very reliable for the most part. The updated coilover suspension was a huge upgrade for the 911 and this was the first twin plug "production" model. I'm sure you're aware of the head gasket (or lack of them) issue, though this car likely falls within the range. The 964 was also the first 911 to sport ABS and power steering.; the shift mechanism is also vastly improved from the prior series. My last 964 was an RS America, which was modified for track use, but looked fairly stock from the exterior. They are still a popular track car due to the modern suspension and decent power.

Enjoy and let us know your thoughts after your fun drive!

[Frodo]

Hey LB...don't be a stranger...you're still drivin' a Porsche after all.

Your input into the forum, and to my PMs, has been invaluable to me and lots of other folks as well. Sooo...like I said, Don't be a stranger!

[Pat]

Originally Posted by jmatta

You seem to know these cars pretty well, any other pearls you'd like to share?

The 964s have been very reliable for the most part. The updated coilover suspension was a huge upgrade for the 911 and this was the first twin plug "production" model. I'm sure you're aware of the head gasket (or lack of them) issue, though this car likely falls within the range. The 964 was also the first 911 to sport ABS and power steering.; the shift mechanism is also vastly improved from the prior series. My last 964 was an RS America, which was modified for track use, but looked fairly stock from the exterior. They are still a popular track car due to the modern suspension and decent power.

Enjoy and let us know your thoughts after your fun drive!

That RS is TEH SEX. Absolutely gorgeous.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Pat

I test drove a 964 before buying the 986. I tend to be very rational, practical and unemotional. Performance is a driving factor for me. I saw no benefit to owning the 964 vs the 986, other than it was a coupe (personal preference). The 986 is just as fast in a straight line (I think), handles better, has more modern design and functionality, is more reliable, has a higher fun factor, is more ergonomic, etc. The only benefit I saw to the 964 is the "moxy." Air-cooled, 911, "classic" status, etc. Those don't mean much to me. My decision was easy.

Whoa... no one said one is better than the other, they're both good cars, just different. It's not a contest.

Just want to experience them both and I'm 50% there.

Cheers!

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

Whoa... no one said one is better than the other, they're both good cars, just different. It's not a contest.

Just want to experience them both and I'm 50% there.

Cheers!

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't think I said one is absolutely better than the other. I specifically stated my priorities, then told how the 986 fits them better than the 964, other than the coupe/roadster issue. I can see how that could be perceived as "the 964 is inferior" though.

[blue2000s]

The air cooled cars are sooo much more tactile than the 986/996 and newer. The new cars have higher limits, but that's useless on a street driven car.

I'd have chosen an even older model, like an SC, no power steering and about 300 pounds lighter, but I love to drive any of the older models. Oh that engine music.

The air cooled cars also have that really solid build construction that Porsche built their reputation on. Look at the difference between closing the door on an older 911 to a newer one and you'll know what I mean. Not to say they were flawless, but they were built with less of a concern for cost.

I understand that the 964 AWD system tends to understeer more than most people preferred, but I've driven through the mountains briskly following a 964 C4 and although I could gain a little here and there, I'd say he wasn't struggling with excessive understeer.

[Pat]

Yes, build quality on the older cars I think is better. Good point.

[Perfectlap]

^ just make sure your garage floor is isn't stained easily.
and be sure to have a deep rainy day fund for unexpected engine issues.
Those aren't exactly plug and play labor rates like the new ones.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

The air cooled cars are sooo much more tactile than the 986/996 and newer. The new cars have higher limits, but that's useless on a street driven car.

I'd have chosen an even older model, like an SC, no power steering and about 300 pounds lighter, but I love to drive any of the older models. Oh that engine music.

The air cooled cars also have that really solid build construction that Porsche built their reputation on. Look at the difference between closing the door on an older 911 to a newer one and you'll know what I mean. Not to say they were flawless, but they were built with less of a concern for cost.

I understand that the 964 AWD system tends to understeer more than most people preferred, but I've driven through the mountains briskly following a 964 C4 and although I could gain a little here and there, I'd say he wasn't struggling with excessive understeer.

Well, understeer is somewhat subjective. The main advantage to the AWD is it's ability to mitigate the snap oversteer these cars have a tendency to experience and of course it does this through some increased understeer. But the difference is mostly one of getting used to it, sort of like driving a car with a higher steering gear ratio, you learn to adapt.

The disadvantages are reduced Range (MPG) driving 2 sets of wheels instead of 1. There's a weight penalty of a few hundred pounds. There's more to go wrong and more to service. But, bye-in-large it's a pretty robust system.

The biggest issues with the 964 tend to be the plastic valve covers, which warp and then leak perrenially (there are aftermarket alloy billet CNC valve covers which cure this, but it's a $1,000 solution), the dual ignition system will degrade unless you add the vent kit to eliminate ozone buildup in the #2 dizzy, teh M64 motor was built without head gaskets and any warpage can cause loss of oil and eventually compression (headgaskets can be installed and fix the problem) and all parts are EXPENSIVE! They make the Boxster look cheap to maintain by comparison.

This is why I chose the one I did. It's pristine condition and low mileage should, at least for a while, make the ownership costs bearable.

I already have the Factory Repair Manuals and in many cases, servicing the car looks to be easier (though in some cases, not by much) than the Boxster.

Anyway, nothing says it has to be forever. If I end up disenchanted with it, I'll just start to look for the next one down the list.

But, for now, I'm looking forward to the experience of owning and driving this car.

Cheers!

[Quickurt]

WOW!! Congrats, LB!
I can tell it was love at first bite!
I drove 911's for years and as long as you're aware of their bite you'll be fine.
Air cooled/water cooled, they both have their ups and downs, it's all about what YOU want and what YOU are willing to deal with.
I'm a mid-engine man and to tell the truth, if NSX's hadn't gone ridiculous, I'd probably be typing on their forum right now!
If you run into any trouble on your trip back north, I'm in Jacksonville and best bud has a Porsche shop in Macon. PM me if you want numbers, just in case.
Best of luck and don't become a stranger!

[Flavor 987S]

Did you do leakdown? If so, what were your numbers?

You let Champion do a PPI on an air-cooled car? They know very little about these machines. An indy shop would have been much more knowledgeable.

A leakdown would add about 4 hours to the PPI process. Have the plugs changed too "while you are in there".

You are going to wish you purchased a turbo. And not a cab. The cabs have far less collective value.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Flavor 987S

Did you do leakdown? If so, what were your numbers?

You let Champion do a PPI on an air-cooled car? They know very little about these machines. An indy shop would have been much more knowledgeable.

A leakdown would add about 4 hours to the PPI process. Have the plugs changed too "while you are in there".

You are going to wish you purchased a turbo. And not a cab. The cabs have far less collective value.

I appreciate the insights.

Champion did a very good PPI and I am satisfied with the detail and intensiveness of it - they have a 30 yr. Porsche Factory trained Tech who they specifically assign to the air-cooled cars. And, I did quite a lot of research prior to chasing this car and directed them to specifically look closely at areas I learned should be of concern.

They did not do a leakdown, but did do compression - all 6 cylinders measured within 3% of each other (this is a 20k mi. car, I wouldn't expect anything different).

Maintenance, such as oil and plug changes, was not possible as this was not yet my car - we hadn't yet negotiated a purchase price, the last thing I was going to do was maintenance on His car.

I will not ever wish I'd gotten a Turbo. I've owned many turbo cars in my lifetime and probably because of this have come to appreciate the smoothness and linear power delivery of naturally aspirated vehicles. IMHO, Turbos are like the girl you don't bring home to meet Mom - great fun for a night,... but not for a lifetime.

Again, I definitely wanted a Cab, it's the primary reason I chose this car. If I want to light my hair on fire, I have a couple other toys that'll do that quite nicely. It's not what I'm looking for in this car.

Cheers!

[Flavor 987S]

A quality PPI on an air cooled Porsche is about $1,200-$1,500. By skipping the leakdown testing, you may have made a huge mistake. You don't know the true health of the engine.

The PPI you did at Champion amounts to a simple used car check-list that they charged you about $270 for.

My comment regarding the spark plug change has nothing to do about providing "free maintenance" to the prior owner. During a leakdown test the plugs are already out, if the numbers are good (on your specific car I would expect values in the 2% range +/- 1% and within a very tight range of each other...<5%) and you plan to keep the car, put new plugs in for a few dollars more. No brainer. Plugs are cheap. Labor to get to the plugs is not.

My comment "wishing you purchased a turbo" is becuase the 964 will feel very-very slow compared to your Boxster. When I was adding to my collection last year, and in search for an air cooled Porsche (which took me 21 months and 4 PPI's to find the "right car for me") the 993 C2's and C4's did not offer me any performance above my current 2006 987S. In fact they have the same HP. 280/282 and the 993 weights more...about 250 pounds. That's why it took me so long to find the right air cooled Porsche. A 1997 993 Turbo (less than 500 are in the USA).

Doing the proper $1,200 PPI on my specific Porsche protected me from buying a Porsche that would require a +$12,000 top-end rebuild. Granted, it will require one some day....just not for 40-60,000 miles from now!

You are right about the linear power delivery regarding a Turbo. But the 993 Turbo is a twin turbo with very-very minimal lag. The 964 is a single turbo, and has significant lag. With the 997.2TT turbo lag is non existent.

Enjoy your new car.

[blue2000s]

Compared to a 2.5 tip Boxster, a 240Z, and a 70s Esprit, the NA 964 is going to be a rocket. Although I wouldn't describe the torque curve of the air cooled engines linear, it is extremely entertaining.

[Lil bastard]

OK... Day#1. Got up at 3am for a 5am flight to Palm Beach. Picked up by the owner and drove the car to the Lawyer handling the sale. The Owner tried to renegotiate the deal! I called a cab to go back to the airport, and he finally signed the papers. Felt sorry for the guy, but that's all I could do... feel sorry for him. He did not have to sell me the car.

Anyway, all the drama extended my time on the ground, so I only made 500 miles before calling it a day.

The car is fanatastic. It's so tight, it's hard to believe it's 20 yrs. old. The power is amazing and I got better than 28 MPG and I was at 80 or above the whole day.

Leaving tomorrow @ 5am for a quick stop in Macon and then northward. If the car and I feel up to it, I may marathon it to get home, but most likely will make another stop and take it easy the rest of the way.

It is so much improved from the SC. Yes, it's heavier and less tactile, but not by much. It's advantages, esp. the suspension more than make up for them IMHO.

Hope tomorrow's cool enough to actually do some top-down driving, today was near 100 and I did AC all the way.

Cheers!

[Boxtaboy]

His 98 2.5 986 was a Tip, so anything he buys to replace it will be faster! Don't let anyone stop you from fully enjoying your new purchase. Congrats on the purchase and drive it in good health, Lil!

[Lil bastard]

OK... made it home tonight.

Car ran great the whole way, just a blast (at least as much a blast as you can have on cruise control and 5th gear for hrs. on end.

Special Shout to QuicKurt! I went to Autoworks in Macon GA to have the fluids changed. Met Randy and his mechanic. Great guys and they were amazed at the car and it's condition.

Despite knowing you (and he does say you truly are 'Quick' btw and warned me away from your political Blog... lol), he could not have been more accommodating. Ran the car up on a lift and inspected everything. Did the oil swap and was very reasonable. Wish I lived closer, because he'd definitely be my guy!

Thanks foir the recommendation. Even though I PM'd you and asked for his name/number and you did not reply (understandable, we're all busy), I picked the Porsche Mechanic from Google Search (3 came up) which I thought might best describe him.

I had my wife call ahead and something got messed up in translation. I walked into the shop the next day and asked for Randy. He said he thought I was going to another shop. I said no, I intended to come here, but he seemed somewhat reluctant to assist me.

I then asked if he knew Kurt from Jacksonville and all of a sudden we were 'Brothers of Another Mother', he got right to it, said I could pay by check to preserve my 'Road Cash'. Really did a nice job and again, confirmed what I'd been told and saw myself that this car is a true time-capsule. Had me on my way within 2 hrs.

Anyone in the Atlanta/Macon area would be well served by going to see Randy at Autoworks in Macon!

Thanks again Kurt for your recommendation!

Cheers!

[Quickurt]

Randy and Eric were on their second day of trying to replace a rear window and regulator on a VW "new" beetle when you walked in.
He called right after you left and said he was sorry he was a bit short when you walked in. He's been known to lose his temper when working on cars that are ridiculously hard to work on.
High performance cars are one thing, they are small, light and tight and you expect them to be tough work, but the rear window in a VW Beetle??

Sorry I missed your PM, it would have smoothed the meeting, had I been able to call ahead for you. I've been up to my ears in a new project and procedure for my shop.

Glad the rest of your trip went well and you're tickled with your new toy.
Drift it thru a fast turn for me!

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Quickurt

Randy and Eric were on their second day of trying to replace a rear window and regulator on a VW "new" beetle when you walked in.
He called right after you left and said he was sorry he was a bit short when you walked in. He's been known to lose his temper when working on cars that are ridiculously hard to work on.
High performance cars are one thing, they are small, light and tight and you expect them to be tough work, but the rear window in a VW Beetle??

Sorry I missed your PM, it would have smoothed the meeting, had I been able to call ahead for you. I've been up to my ears in a new project and procedure for my shop.

Glad the rest of your trip went well and you're tickled with your new toy.
Drift it thru a fast turn for me!

Yea, Randy showed me all that swapping that window regulator entailed. You practically had to remove everything aft of the front seats to access it. Add to this that the part alone was $700 and Randy had the cheerful task of informing the customer.

I didn't think he was short at all. Seems there had been some miscommunication between Randy and my wife who called ahead for me to try and set an appointment (i'm amongst the 1% of the population who doesn't own a cell phone), so Randy was not expecting me.

But, I really enjoyed my time with him and he went way beyond a mere oil change. He did a fairly thorough inspection of the car, more out of curiosity at it's pristine condition than anything else. But, he took pains to explain everything to me and gave me a better understanding of the 964 than I had walking in.

The trip was great fun, though there were only a few highlights as there isn't a lot to say about hour upon hour of cruising the interstates with the cruise on and in 5th gear.

Anyway... super nice guys. Thanks for the recommendation!

Cheers!

[Flavor 987S]

What oil did you elect to run in your air cooled engine?