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Old 05-03-2021, 06:59 PM   #1
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It's BS! :(

A couple of wks ago I got the diagnosis I didn't want to hear but was prepared for: Sydney my CSS has bore scoring.

Back in the spring of 2019, she was smoking a bit at startup. Changed the AOS, which seemed to help. That Aug on the way to and coming from the Indy DE, she drank oil like a drunken sailor. What was unusual was she didn't use unusual amts of oil the 3 days I was on the track. On the way home, I got a CEL that turned out to be for the driver's side cat. I changed the O2 sensor and that seemed to solve the problem but there was still the more than occasional smoke at startup and higher than normal oil consumption. I thought I might have gotten a bad AOS from the large Porsche dealer on the FL coast, so I bought another last summer and replaced it. Indy was in Oct last yr. Same situation - lots of oil consumption on the road to and from, but not a lot of consumption on the track. This time, however, there was more of a pronounced ticking noise echoing off the pit walls while I waited to hit the track.

Not long after I got back, I got more CELs. This time I replaced the driver's exhaust manifold because the CAT was bad. But it probably went bad because it was getting bathed in oil. When I had the manifold off, I peeked into the engine exhaust chamber of the #6 cyl and it was sooty. The other 2 cyl didn't look bad. Changing the manifold was just curing a symptom, not the problem, so I had an indy shop scope the #6 cyl. They confirmed it was bore scoring. They said it looked like I might have a crack in the cyl, so I've shut her down.

So now what? I've got 4 options...
1. Find a used engine with 50-60K mi and swap it in. That will run around $8K for the motor, $2K shipping, $2K installation for a total of $12K before incidentals.
2. I found a motor from an 06 CS in PA that has 2500 mi on it. It was removed many yrs ago for a 3.8L 911 upgrade. Guy has it listed for $13K but would probably take $11K. Add $2K for shipping and $2K for installation for a total of $15K before incidentals.
3. Have Raby or L&N rebuild it. Probably $25K but have to wait in line for 18 mo.
4. My indy shop said they work with a company in AZ that's one of the premier Porsche engine builders in the US. I asked the shop to write up an est and I wanted to know who the company was so I could do some recon on them.

Jake Raby is experimenting with a new cyl lining process that he says will revolutionize the bore scoring solution. The current process is to replace all the cyl with new ones coated with Nikasil (factory coating is Likosil). However, Nikasil is a plating type process that is very environmentally unfriendly. Jake's new process will allow him to hone the existing cyl and coat them with another material. (I think this is what he's intending to do but he was a tad secretive about it.) This new process is still experimental so it will be a couple of yrs before it's market ready. If I select options 1 or 2, I can hang onto my orig engine and send it to Jake when his system is perfected.

However, either options 1 or 2 would be replacing (even for a short while) with an engine that could shoot craps at any time. I did some checking with various Porsche dismantlers and ebay and there aren't any lower mileage engines around. They all have 100K mi IF they have any. The 2500 mi engine is a 'cat in the sack' since it hasn't been run for many yrs. There could be a multitude of issues with that one. Plus either option is using an engine with all the same inherent design issues.

I don't want to wait in line 18 mo for a Raby or L&N rebuild and be without Sydney that whole time.

My indy shop said the builder they work with is John Bray at EvoSpec. I had them send him a series of questions on build components while I did some research on him. Turns out he is one of the premier Porsche engine builders in the country. He'll put in Nikasil liners and punch it out to 3.8L. The build addresses all the weaknesses of the M97. I spoke to my shop today. The rebuild will be $23K and $2500 to remove, ship, and reinstall the engine. The good news is we should be able to get on their list relatively quick and then it will be 2 mo for the rebuild. I need 7-10 days to get that much money in place, but that's the direction I'm going. It sounded like that would be about the amt of time needed to get on his schedule.

While I'm sure I'll feel happy when everything is done, this is a big deal financially for me. At the end of this mo, it will be 5 yrs ago I was canned at the famous insurance company in Omaha. I've been keeping my head above water since then, partly thru my Wheeler Dealer activities and am now going to start my pension. My plan was to not use my 401k until age 70 (just turned 62). I'm single with no exs or kids (that I know of), so I just have to plan for myself, but it's not like I can sneeze at an expenditure of this size. Looks like I'll be dipping into my 401k funds. It's my money and I earned it, but it's not a joyous time at the Husker Boxster home. I certainly won't be doing any DEing this yr even if I have Sydney back in 3 mo. I'll need to be extra fiscally responsible the rest of this yr.

1st world problems, whatcha gonna do?

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Old 05-03-2021, 07:10 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by husker boxster View Post
A couple of wks ago I got the diagnosis I didn't want to hear but was prepared for: Sydney my CSS has bore scoring.



Back in the spring of 2019, she was smoking a bit at startup. Changed the AOS, which seemed to help. That Aug on the way to and coming from the Indy DE, she drank oil like a drunken sailor. What was unusual was she didn't use unusual amts of oil the 3 days I was on the track. On the way home, I got a CEL that turned out to be for the driver's side cat. I changed the O2 sensor and that seemed to solve the problem but there was still the more than occasional smoke at startup and higher than normal oil consumption. I thought I might have gotten a bad AOS from the large Porsche dealer on the FL coast, so I bought another last summer and replaced it. Indy was in Oct last yr. Same situation - lots of oil consumption on the road to and from, but not a lot of consumption on the track. This time, however, there was more of a pronounced ticking noise echoing off the pit walls while I waited to hit the track.



Not long after I got back, I got more CELs. This time I replaced the driver's exhaust manifold because the CAT was bad. But it probably went bad because it was getting bathed in oil. When I had the manifold off, I peeked into the engine exhaust chamber of the #6 cyl and it was sooty. The other 2 cyl didn't look bad. Changing the manifold was just curing a symptom, not the problem, so I had an indy shop scope the #6 cyl. They confirmed it was bore scoring. They said it looked like I might have a crack in the cyl, so I've shut her down.



So now what? I've got 4 options...

1. Find a used engine with 50-60K mi and swap it in. That will run around $8K for the motor, $2K shipping, $2K installation for a total of $12K before incidentals.

2. I found a motor from an 06 CS in PA that has 2500 mi on it. It was removed many yrs ago for a 3.8L 911 upgrade. Guy has it listed for $13K but would probably take $11K. Add $2K for shipping and $2K for installation for a total of $15K before incidentals.

3. Have Raby or L&N rebuild it. Probably $25K but have to wait in line for 18 mo.

4. My indy shop said they work with a company in AZ that's one of the premier Porsche engine builders in the US. I asked the shop to write up an est and I wanted to know who the company was so I could do some recon on them.



Jake Raby is experimenting with a new cyl lining process that he says will revolutionize the bore scoring solution. The current process is to replace all the cyl with new ones coated with Nikasil (factory coating is Likosil). However, Nikasil is a plating type process that is very environmentally unfriendly. Jake's new process will allow him to hone the existing cyl and coat them with another material. (I think this is what he's intending to do but he was a tad secretive about it.) This new process is still experimental so it will be a couple of yrs before it's market ready. If I select options 1 or 2, I can hang onto my orig engine and send it to Jake when his system is perfected.



However, either options 1 or 2 would be replacing (even for a short while) with an engine that could shoot craps at any time. I did some checking with various Porsche dismantlers and ebay and there aren't any lower mileage engines around. They all have 100K mi IF they have any. The 2500 mi engine is a 'cat in the sack' since it hasn't been run for many yrs. There could be a multitude of issues with that one. Plus either option is using an engine with all the same inherent design issues.



I don't want to wait in line 18 mo for a Raby or L&N rebuild and be without Sydney that whole time.



My indy shop said the builder they work with is John Bray at EvoSpec. I had them send him a series of questions on build components while I did some research on him. Turns out he is one of the premier Porsche engine builders in the country. He'll put in Nikasil liners and punch it out to 3.8L. The build addresses all the weaknesses of the M97. I spoke to my shop today. The rebuild will be $23K and $2500 to remove, ship, and reinstall the engine. The good news is we should be able to get on their list relatively quick and then it will be 2 mo for the rebuild. I need 7-10 days to get that much money in place, but that's the direction I'm going. It sounded like that would be about the amt of time needed to get on his schedule.



While I'm sure I'll feel happy when everything is done, this is a big deal financially for me. At the end of this mo, it will be 5 yrs ago I was canned at the famous insurance company in Omaha. I've been keeping my head above water since then, partly thru my Wheeler Dealer activities and am now going to start my pension. My plan was to not use my 401k until age 70 (just turned 62). I'm single with no exs or kids (that I know of), so I just have to plan for myself, but it's not like I can sneeze at an expenditure of this size. Looks like I'll be dipping into my 401k funds. It's my money and I earned it, but it's not a joyous time at the Husker Boxster home. I certainly won't be doing any DEing this yr even if I have Sydney back in 3 mo. I'll need to be extra fiscally responsible the rest of this yr.



1st world problems, whatcha gonna do?
Did the shop do leak down of your cylinders? If it's not too bad, why not just keep going? I know it will get worse, but it sounds a lot cheaper to go with a catless exhaust and keep her topped off with dinosaur blood then any of these options. Plus, if you have cracked a cylinder, ain't no magic cylinder dating gonna fix that. Plan b would be a v8 swap. Gearheads project is the most extreme iteration of such, but it can (and has been ) done much simpler with great outcomes.

Either way, I'm sorry to hear about this. It seems that these cars have a way of breaking hearts harder than first loves...

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Old 05-03-2021, 08:58 PM   #3
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This ad has been on CL for a while now, in San Jose. It would need a lot of work but allegedly it`s brand new inside: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/pts/d/san-jose-2002-boxster-motor-only-37/7300196830.html
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:34 AM   #4
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I'm so sorry, ouch. As someone who has blown up a Boxster engine before and looked at all the options I think your best bet is to find a local S motor and replace it (and no offence but don't get that one that has been in storage). Looking on Ebay S motors are $2,500-$3,000. It doesn't make sense to fix the weak spots with a $30,000 motor when you could buy ten motors for that price. A 911 motor would be awesome but no engine swap is simple. Even one that seems as straight forward as a 911 motor which is virtually identical. Another thing to keep in mind is that if you swap in a 911 motor and blow it up you'll have a much more expensive problem if you blow it up again.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:22 AM   #5
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This ad has been on CL for a while now, in San Jose. It would need a lot of work but allegedly it`s brand new inside: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/pts/d/san-jose-2002-boxster-motor-only-37/7300196830.html
That...that's just sad...why would you leave that sitting for 17 years?? I hope they had enough sense to drain the fluids first

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Old 05-04-2021, 08:02 AM   #6
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sometimes you may want to think outside of the box

Husker, I am really sorry for your engine, about five years ago I was in the same situation with my '07 CS (about 70k) as it was using about a quart of oil every 4-500 miles and have the ticking noise that first I assumed to be a ticking lifter..

When I bought the car I installed a lot of goodies like coilovers, sway bars, OS Giken LSD, IPD intake, SpeedArt exhaust, etc.. I loved the car but didn't have the money to buy a Raby engine.

Therefore, I decided to build my own using the LN (Nickies) cylinders and also attended the Flat6 MS97 engine class build to learn the details for this engine as my previous engine assembly was on Renault, Fiat and Alfa Romeo engines.

If I remember correctly, the estimated cost was going to be about $10-11k (using the forged conrods) but if you only use the cylinders and ARP fasteners you may be able to get away with $7-9k I also bought a lift table from HF to lower the engine.

Sadly I never had the chance to rebuild my engine as a lady ran a stop light in front of my office and my CS was totaled..

You may want to call LN and ask Charles (BTW he is a gentleman) for a list of the components you will require and their estimated cost, if you take your time and do it carefully you will be ok, it's not rocket science, I believe that Flat6 sells their engine rebuilt class on CD's and I have seen the special assembly tools for sale on Rennlist, it may be worth for you to look at this option.

Good luck!
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:14 AM   #7
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If you are a skilled DIY'er, rebuild it.

Send engine halves to LN, have them put in new IMS and pin the gear, send the heads to Hoffman to be checked over, and then reassemble.

You can do it with K1 rods, forged pistons, and good hardware for around $11k. Might take about 4 months.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:18 AM   #8
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That...that's just sad...why would you leave that sitting for 17 years?? I hope they had enough sense to drain the fluids first

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Yeah, it`s kind of a waste... If I needed an engine I`d try to buy it, I like challenges and risky projects though But first I `d inspect it thoroughly with a borescope. Probably it`s largely negotiable, it`s been for sale for months. Could be a good deal for someone if moisture did not get inside.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:36 AM   #9
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At any age there is literally no way that I would pull from my 401K for a motor.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:10 PM   #10
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Thanks everyone for the love. I appreciate the suggestions. Everyone will take their own path in a situation like this. While I haven't thought everything thru, and there may be some ideas I haven't thought of, here are my thoughts on the suggestions so far.

Used engine
There's no way to know how a used engine has been treated. Does it have a bunch of over-revs? How often was the oil changed? What are the odds a replacement engine has bore scoring immediately down the road? There are so many potential issues that could crop up and you don't know the condition of the engine you're putting in. My 08 CSS uses a 3.4L M97. You might be able to find some cheap 3.2 M96s, but that's not going to be plug and play in my car. I just did a quick check on ebay and the cheapest used M97 was $7K. When you throw in shipping and installation, I could do 2 used engines for the price of the rebuild. But how long would the replacements last? I could be doing the 2 swaps in a yr since you're buying an unknown. There are people advertising rebuilt engines for $12-13K but you need to know what's in them. One of the popular rebuilders in that price range doesn't use aluminum cyl liners. I see one on ebay in that price range from Germany but not sure what's in it. There isn't a ready source of available engines in my neck of the woods, so anything I buy will require a fair amt of shipping costs. I'm just not excited about doing this multiple times.

Keep driving it
We don't have a state inspection in Neb, so I could pull the cats and keep it full of oil but the potential crack in the cyl wall spooks me. If a chunk falls off and rattles around in the crankcase, it could cause nasty damage. I need this engine to be rebuildable or a good core.

DIY build
My dad was an excellent mechanic but we mostly did body work. Of course there were the normal maintenance jobs that he taught me how to do, but we never rebuilt any engines. I don't think this would be a good jumping off point to start. Plus I'd probably need to buy a bunch of tools. If it was a Ford flathead, I might be willing to try but these engines are a bit more complicated. I watched the Boosted Brothers videos of them buying a bag of Porsche engine parts and struggling to build an M96 engine. They're way more experienced than me. And my 2 car garage is probably not ideally set up for this either. As Clint Eastwood says, "A man's gotta know his own limitations".

LS swap
My brother suggested this too. If I had a garden variety CS with a ton of miles on it, an LS swap might be a consideration. But she's one of 700 Sport models, of which only 100 or so were brought to the US. You could get the Sport in 6 colors, so not all of them were Signal Green. Not that she's going to be a 6 figure car someday, but she is special and LS swapping would feel like I'm desecrating her. Plus I was raised in a Ford family so my dad would be spinning in his grave if I put a Chevy in any car I owned.

And I guess I didn't mention this is my original thread. There really isn't anything out there that I like better. That red 14 CS I had as a WD car 1.5 yrs ago was about as close to tugging on me as anything, but there were several things about it I didn't like vs my CSS. Anything I would buy would be expensive due to COVID. A 14 CS is now worth $48K. I would probably only get $15 or maybe $20 for my CSS in it's current condition, so I'd have to spend $25-30K to get into a 14 CS after selling my CSS.

Another suggestion from my brother was to sell my LE to pay for the engine rebuild. Yeah, right. I know Frodo just got excited reading the first sentence of this paragraph, but it aint happenin. I love both of my cars and don't have any desire to get rid of either of them. Before I got them, I changed cars about every 4 yrs.

I should also mention my house has been paid off for almost 13 yrs and both my cars have been mine for 11 and 7 yrs.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:30 PM   #11
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Having tgone through this due to a failed LN Single Row Pro IMSB 2 years ago and deciding to have my engine rebuilt by my local shop, I feel your pain. I decided to have my engine case sent to LN and get my 3.2 increased to 3.6 with LN Nickies. It took 6 months for the LN Nickies to be completed, including shipping both ways. The intial time estimate was 8 weeks. I had some email correspondence with Charles Navarro and spoke with his father a couple of times, as he works there to and answers the phone. Both were always very nice and helpful. The biggest reason for this is the backlog at the platers. There are only a few platers that can do the job to LN's standards and they are busy year round with engines for cars, motorcycles and snowmobiles, probably boats too! So if you're contemplating an increase in displacement, keep that in mind. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:46 PM   #12
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Sorry to hear this, man! I've got no advice or wisdom for you, but I do feel your pain.
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:47 PM   #13
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I hope You will excuse my Ignorance on this , just curious, is there a way you can take the engine apart and just try and find or ( I know this probably isn't a economical way ) and source a case from Europe or Porsche and reassemble with just a new ring set,.. why would you have to replace everything ?
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:34 AM   #14
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I hope You will excuse my Ignorance on this , just curious, is there a way you can take the engine apart and just try and find or ( I know this probably isn't a economical way ) and source a case from Europe or Porsche and reassemble with just a new ring set,.. why would you have to replace everything ?
Not bad questions at all. It would be somewhat possible to do what you ask, but you get into a lot of "while you're in there" situations to address poor Porsche designs.

~The factory cyl are coated with Lokasil. It has proven to be less durable than the Nikasil that was used in air cooled engines and is currently used in turbo and GT3 engines. If you get a factory block with Lokasil, you just reset the clock on when or if it will wash off.

~Bore scoring not only scratches the cyl walls, but also wears the coating off the piston skirts. No way you could reuse the pistons.

~Porsche used cheap rod bolts that stretch when spending extended time near redline. When the bolts stretch, it allows the rod bearings to slip out of place, resulting in what's referred to as a spun bearing. That's why I always shifted at 6K rpm on the track vs going all the way to 7200. I only do 2-3 DEs / yr.

~Porsche took a 911 engine and just turned it around for the 987. This resulted in potential oiling issues in long sweeping left handers, starving the oil to the #6 cyl. There are several ways to address this that get progressively better (and expensive) with each solution. I currently have an EBS oil baffle in my car., which is the least expensive fix. You can progress to deep sump oil pan and go all the way up to a 2nd set of oil pumps to keep the oil circulating. I was a bit disappointed EvoSpec does the deep sump but not a 2nd set of oil pots.

Bottom line is it doesn't make sense to not address the faults of the M97 while you're already doing major work. If you don't, you just have the same issues lurking, waiting to occur again. This is the main reason I don't want to do a used engine - the same problems are lurking. Unfortunately it costs $$$ to fix the problems but just changing the block would already cost a bunch. Might as well make it right.
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:19 AM   #15
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I decided to have my engine case sent to LN and get my 3.2 increased to 3.6 with LN Nickies. It took 6 months for the LN Nickies to be completed, including shipping both ways. The intial time estimate was 8 weeks.
My rebuild will be going from 3.4 to 3.8L. Interesting that I was told the same time est. However, my car will be staying at the indy shop. I wanted to be sure they kept it inside now that storm season is approaching. They said they had a lift dedicated to long term jobs. He did say the job depended on how long it took to have the new cyl pressed in (or however they do that). They can do the barking to the builder since they have lost income with the bay being taken up.

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The biggest reason for this is the backlog at the platers. There are only a few platers that can do the job to LN's standards and they are busy year round with engines for cars, motorcycles and snowmobiles, probably boats too!
This is why Raby is developing a new cyl lining process. It will be more environmentally friendly than Nikasil, just as strong, and he won't have to depend on a busy plater.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:10 PM   #16
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Husker, if you decided go with the 3.8 cylinders I would suggest avoiding the steel cylinder inserts and go with the aluminum sleeves for a long term engine health..
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:47 PM   #17
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Husker, if you decided go with the 3.8 cylinders I would suggest avoiding the steel cylinder inserts and go with the aluminum sleeves for a long term engine health..
Absolutely. That's why I don't want to go with the FL rebuilder. EvoSpec is using alum cyl with Nikasil coating. Almost eliminates the chance of bore scoring happening again.
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Old 05-05-2021, 05:18 PM   #18
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My rebuild will be going from 3.4 to 3.8L. Interesting that I was told the same time est. However, my car will be staying at the indy shop. I wanted to be sure they kept it inside now that storm season is approaching. They said they had a lift dedicated to long term jobs. He did say the job depended on how long it took to have the new cyl pressed in (or however they do that). They can do the barking to the builder since they have lost income with the bay being taken up.



This is why Raby is developing a new cyl lining process. It will be more environmentally friendly than Nikasil, just as strong, and he won't have to depend on a busy plater.
My car stayed inside at my Indy shop while the engine was apart too, they had no sway with getting the engine case back any sooner, LN is at the mercy of the plater. I suspect Jake Raby is the only shop that has any pull with LN on getting Nickies done, unless Jake actually gets them done on his own and has his own plater to push. Raby's new cylinder lining process looks interesting, do you think it will be commercially available in your time frame. I saw a Total Seal Piston Rings/Lake Speed Jr video about that on Facebook, it seems like it is still a couple of years away from being commercial.

Once you get your engine back in your car, you will love it! I hope you can swing a few Wheeler/Dealer cars through while you're waiting to help pay for it!
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Old 05-05-2021, 05:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Gilles View Post
Husker, if you decided go with the 3.8 cylinders I would suggest avoiding the steel cylinder inserts and go with the aluminum sleeves for a long term engine health..
maybe this is a stupid question, but what's wrong with iron sleeves? Strong, durable, easily sourced, and not dependent on any of this stuff? Tuners doing conversions from na to fi have been doing this for a long time with good results. Is there something about this engine that doesn't play well with iron sleeves though?

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Old 05-05-2021, 09:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ike84 View Post
maybe this is a stupid question, but what's wrong with iron sleeves? Strong, durable, easily sourced, and not dependent on any of this stuff? Tuners doing conversions from na to fi have been doing this for a long time with good results. Is there something about this engine that doesn't play well with iron sleeves though?
Iron dissipates heat at a different / slower rate than alum, so your engine runs hotter.

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