Gold Flakes in Oil and Age of Motor?

[piper6909]

So I just changed the oil for the second time since owning the car. First oil change, 3k miles and 1 year ago, things looked pretty normal, even the filter was free of debris.

Today I changed the oil, cut open the filter and found about 20 specks the look like gold flakes. About .5mm in diameter average. A sample flake is in the left half of this picture.


So, I know these engines new cost their weight in gold, but I know they're not made of gold, so I'm thinking I'm looking at brass. I looked at the drain pan, and saw flakes there, too. But it it wasn't a clean pan to start with, so I can't be sure it came from this particular motor. I did change the oil in my Town & Country and my Subaru last week, but don't remember seeing any flakes. But then again, both have high miles, 194K in the Subaru and 134K in the T&C, so I can't rule out that it came from them either. Sorry, I didn't take pics of the drain pan.

So, to all those who rebuild these motors, what's made of brass? Bearings? Lifters?

Also, I also found out that this is a factory replacement motor. I've seen somewhere that you can decode the age of the motor, but I can't find it anymore. Does anyone know when this factory replacement motor was built? The car is a 2002, so it would be newer than that, right? Serial number is M96/22AT65265200. I have no maintenance records for this car.

Thanks in advance.

[78F350]

I used teh Google and found this:

When it comes to performance in combustion engines, shell bearings are vital components. Gold Engineering is a highly reliable partner for stocking standard-sized shell bearings and supplying undersized shell bearings for combustion engines in emergency and damage cases.

How much gold is in a car?
20,000 kg of gold
The number of cars that exited the fleet that year – being scrapped or ending up outside Europe's borders – accounted for 20 tonnes of gold. That's as much gold as is recycled annually from electronics. At least some precious metals are recovered there, but there is no recycling from vehicles

Not much help.

[Starter986]

Originally Posted by 78F350

How much gold is in a car? 20,000 kg of gold

Phenominal.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by 78F350

I used teh Google and found this:




Not much help.

Ha! thanks anyway. I also found that some bearings are made of a copper/lead alloy. I guess that can have a gold look to it. If that's the case with these motors, then I'm looking at a bearing issue.

I can see them using that much gold in the electronics, but not inside the motor.

[JFP in PA]

M96/22AT65265200

After the "AT", the 6 indicates it is a six cylinder, the 5 is the engine version number, and the 2 indicates it is a 2002 engine. As such, it is the single row 2002 IMS version.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

M96/22AT65265200

After the "AT", the 6 indicates it is a six cylinder, the 5 is the engine version number, and the 2 indicates it is a 2002 engine. As such, it is the single row 2002 IMS version.

Thank you. Funny, because it's a 2002 car, and it has a replacement motor which was also build in 2002? Must have been a really, really early failure.

[maytag]

Gold flakes in the motor (if metallic) are typically from your bearing shells. "Sparkles" I'd consider normal-ish, depending on the mileage of the motor. But flakes I think I'd be more concerned about. Especially if they keep coming.

Any chance they're silica, not metallic? 0.5mm is not much to tell from. If they're flattened like flakes, they're almost certainly metallic.


Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by maytag

Gold flakes in the motor (if metallic) are typically from your bearing shells. "Sparkles" I'd consider normal-ish, depending on the mileage of the motor. But flakes I think I'd be more concerned about. Especially if they keep coming.

Any chance they're silica, not metallic? 0.5mm is not much to tell from. If they're flattened like flakes, they're almost certainly metallic.


Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Thank you. I doubt they are silica. They were quite shiny under the light. So, yes, I'm fearing the worst.

I'm not sure which I'd consider them, sparkles or flakes. The car has 93K on it, but at some point the motor was replaced. I'm just wondering what's in there that has a gold/brass color. I'm guessing it could be from the bearings. If so, I'll have to decide whether it's worth having the motor rebuilt or keep driving it until it blows up and then put in another motor.

[thstone]

This is what a serious problem really looks like:

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by thstone

This is what a serious problem really looks like:

Whoa! That IS serious! I hope it's not yours.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards driving it for another 1 or 2 K miles are check it again. At the rate I'm going, it may take me until the end of Summer to drive it 2k miles, anyway.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Whoa! That IS serious! I hope it's not yours.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards driving it for another 1 or 2 K miles are check it again. At the rate I'm going, it may take me until the end of Summer to drive it 2k miles, anyway.

Yes, that was from one of my earlier engines.I am on Engine #5. Racing will find all of the weak spots.

I hope that your filter is nice and clean on the next check!

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by thstone

Yes, that was from one of my earlier engines.I am on Engine #5. Racing will find all of the weak spots.

I hope that your filter is nice and clean on the next check!

Thanks, bud! At least you seem to get the most fun out of yours.

I don't know about the history of mine, but we've only had it on the track once last year. I signed up my wife for DE.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Thanks, bud! At least you seem to get the most fun out of yours.

I don't know about the history of mine, but we've only had it on the track once last year. I signed up my wife for DE.

I think you have worn thru the lead layer of some rod bearings & starting on the copper layer, that's the last layer of defense for the connecting rods. Once the rod is worn oversize it will start knocking & they are not rebuildible but they will ruin the crankshaft.

[98Sixer]

This is the format for a Blackstone report.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by 98Sixer

This is the format for a Blackstone report.

Thank you. Is that yours? Looks like a very clean bill of health!

[Quadcammer]

If you have no scoring, and decent ring seal, then you can refresh an m96 fairly cheaply. It wont be perfect but should extend the life a good while

[piper6909]

Update:
The flakes aren't gold, as I previously stated, but silver. The oil on them made them appear gold

I went back and looked carefully at the drain pan and I took a magnet with me. The flakes are indeed ferrous.

So, could it still be rod bearings? Or maybe is the the IMS bearing ready to go? It has the single-row bearing.

[78F350]

At this point, oil analysis is still probably your best course of action. I'd also recommend a filter magnet or magnetic drain plug in the mean time to snatch up any ferrous material that gets loose in the oil. Pull the filter and take a peek as inspired between oil changes. Filters are cheap and swapping out a filter just takes a few minutes and barely any oil.

Note my signature, but I would not be seriously worried about the engine yet. Most people never even get a look at the oil in their cars and most oil changes will have some degree of trace particles.

[78F350]

...and get a look at this thread:
http://986forum.com/forums/diy-project-guides/51025-diy-magnetic-oil-filtering-2.html

After it was first posted, I did that to all my 986s and it has worked well.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by 78F350

...and get a look at this thread:
http://986forum.com/forums/diy-project-guides/51025-diy-magnetic-oil-filtering-2.html

After it was first posted, I did that to all my 986s and it has worked well.

Thank you! I'll definitely try the magnets. I'll do an oil analysis on my next oil change.

Thank you all for your input!