EPS IMS Bearing Upgrade Kit

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

One other thought:

One thing that attracted me to the EPS bearing system was ability to modify the oil pump drive shaft and the IMS so that oil would be continuously pumped to the bearing. I know this oil source is not cooled or filtered which is ideal, but still it is a continuous oil supply.

Why could you not combine this feature with a simple, non-sealed single row ball bearing? A ball bearing may be a better solution than a roller bearing and the cost could be minimal depending on the source of the bearing.

I have never seen this option discussed anywhere.

Perhaps because the oil pump drives in these engine's are already notoriously weak before you grind a slot in them, punching a hole with a hammer in the pump end shaft seal may not be the best way to control oil flow, and running a flooded IMS shaft may not be the best approach to extending bearing life.

[fanguy]

I am glad to see this discussion develop into technical dialog.

There seems to be 3 very different approaches to delivering oil to the IMSB. List in alphabetical order.
1. EPS (IMS Bearing Upgrade Kit) Cylindrical Roller bearing oil delivered through the oil pump shaft by modifying the shaft during installation.
2. Flat6/L&N, and Jake Raby (IMS Solution) Has removed the Bearing and oil delivered from spin on oil filter to IMSB flange through braided line.
3. Pedro’s (DOF) Roller bearing, from unused port in engine casing to IMSB flange through braided line.

I was very curious about the difference between Jake Raby’s and Pedro’s. Both deliver oil through braided line to the flange but from completely places. Last weekend I sent Jake an email asking why he choose his design as the DOF seemed a simpler way to get oil to the flange. He responded back rather quickly which was impressive. Here is his response to why do he pulls the oil from the filter.

I developed a system similar to the DOF many years ago, it never impressed me, and therefore it was not marketed.
That said, the oil that I collect for the IMS Solution is taken directly from the oil filter, it is JUST FILTERED OIL, and it has the highest volume, fastest priming, and highest pressure of any portion of the engine, because this post is the first orifice past the main engine oil pump. The DOF takes oil from where it does, because my first US Patent includes the Spin on Filter Adaptor method, so the DOF had to source oil elsewhere to reduce the infringement possibilities on this Patent.
United States Patent: 9416697

Review this here:
Layshaft end bearing retrofit with external positive oil pressure delivery
Single Document


That said, the reason I pick up oil where I do, is because I understand the fundamentals of this engine much more than the oil system diagram from Porsche. Pulling oil from the cylinder head is a way to see oil pressure which has already been reduced by the bypass system, and to collect unfiltered oil that has already passed dynamic components. This is NOT just filtered oil; therefore, it can present, and feed directly into the IMS Bearing, debris laden oil. Been there, done that years before anyone else had even extracted an IMS Bearing.

[ksjohn]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Perhaps because the oil pump drives in these engine's are already notoriously weak before you grind a slot in them, punching a hole with a hammer in the pump end shaft seal may not be the best way to control oil flow, and running a flooded IMS shaft may not be the best approach to extending bearing life.

I can agree with some of your point, but not entirely.

I have wondered if Porsche had originally sealed the end of the IMS as opposed to leaving it open might have made failing IMSBs a non-issue. But then that depends on what the majority mode of bearing failure is, rancid, acidic oil in the shaft eating at the bearing or simple failure due to stress.

But, the fact remains that the IM shaft does fill with oil on many/most cars and the oil has no means of escape, creating an oil flooded IMS. It seems to me that the EPS bearing being open allows the oil in the shaft to spin out past the bearing especially when subjected to centrifugal forces of a running engine, minimizing the amount of oil in the shaft while running. And new oil being metered through the pump shaft will provide continual lubrication for the bearing.

Regarding the oil drive shaft, I don't think it is a stock shaft with a groove cut in it. I looked, and they do not spell out how the shaft is manufactured. (which would be nice to see). But I am going to make the assumption that it has been engineered to account for the strength required in light of the groove. That is entirely an assumption. But then I have not read of any of these parts failing either.

I agree with you regarding the punch used to open a hole in the end of the IMS. It should be manufactured with a flange to prevent you from making the hole too big.

Now all of this is simply my understanding of the product and how it works. Many people here have vastly more knowledge than me regarding these engines.

But still, I pose the question: would their oil feed system and a standard un-sealed single row ball bearing be a viable option?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

I can agree with some of your point, but not entirely.

I have wondered if Porsche had originally sealed the end of the IMS as opposed to leaving it open might have made failing IMSBs a non-issue. But then that depends on what the majority mode of bearing failure is, rancid, acidic oil in the shaft eating at the bearing or simple failure due to stress.

But, the fact remains that the IM shaft does fill with oil on many/most cars and the oil has no means of escape, creating an oil flooded IMS. It seems to me that the EPS bearing being open allows the oil in the shaft to spin out past the bearing especially when subjected to centrifugal forces of a running engine, minimizing the amount of oil in the shaft while running. And new oil being metered through the pump shaft will provide continual lubrication for the bearing.

Regarding the oil drive shaft, I don't think it is a stock shaft with a groove cut in it. I looked, and they do not spell out how the shaft is manufactured. (which would be nice to see). But I am going to make the assumption that it has been engineered to account for the strength required in light of the groove. That is entirely an assumption. But then I have not read of any of these parts failing either.

I agree with you regarding the punch used to open a hole in the end of the IMS. It should be manufactured with a flange to prevent you from making the hole too big.

Now all of this is simply my understanding of the product and how it works. Many people here have vastly more knowledge than me regarding these engines.

But still, I pose the question: would their oil feed system and a standard un-sealed single row ball bearing be a viable option?

One thing you may be overlooking is that many, in fact most, IMS shafts do not run true. This means there is some inherent "wobble" in the factory shaft even when is dry. On engines that have suffered IMS failures at low mileage, the amount of this nonconcentric movement is often profound, and is believed to have played a role in the early demise of the IMS bearings as they were simply being beaten to death by the wobble in the shaft, as well as the loss of the grease. As I have mentioned on more than one occasion, we always find the shafts at least partially filled with oil when doing an IMS retrofit, and a common comment we get from car owners after we install an IMS Solution (with the shaft now dry and plugged behind the bearing area) is that the car now seems to run and idle smoother. As we have not changed the amount of inherent wobble in the shaft, but have removed any collected oil and prevented any new intrusion, those observation may be the direct result of there not being any oil inside the IMS shaft to exacerbate the existing wobble inherent to the shaft from the factory. We have also observed that some Porsche engine builders often drill small holes into the IMS shaft, specifically to allow collected oil to escape.

So if oil inside the shaft seems to be an issue with multiple solutions, why would you specifically introduce it in the first place?