As close as it gets: IMS Save!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Series9

I apologize for creating an unnecessary ******************** storm here. Running a car shop presents many and varied ethical gray areas. I work hard to stay on the correct side of the fence and will continue to do so.

If you haven't addressed your factory bearing, please do.

Actually I think thread has been very helpful. So no need to apologize.
Lurkers looking to buy a second hand Boxster, in my experience on this forum, have generally not been advised to be careful with Boxsters/Carreras that have had IMS swaps yet are being sold not long after or with few miles since the IMS upgrade. Typically, prospective buyers coming on this forum to ask if a particular car up for sale is a good value or not, have treated an IMS swap as an open and shut case of a selling point. This thread has pointed out that an IMS swap can indeed be a very good thing or a red flag to move on.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

I apologize for creating an unnecessary ******************** storm here.

A little controversy maybe but no where near a **** storm! That term is forever reserved for "that which will remain unmentioned".

And no, don't ask, because mentioning it will get us all in trouble with the Moderators.

[Jake Raby]

Jake's statement that I am neither a "Preferred Installer" nor certified in the IMS Solution is correct, but I feel that he put it up to imply that I am somehow unqualified to do either.

Trust that it was posted in exactly the manner it was intended. If I wanted to say more, it wouldn't have been implied, as you state in your quoted text above. It would have been stated in a forward, direct manner, just like everything else that I state.

You never have to wonder what I am thinking, I'll tell you. I'll tell anyone. Eyeball to eyeball, toe to toe, or here online.

I have an engine here right now that should not have been retrofitted. Luckily it was caught before any other damage was done. It still has to come all apart, see an ultrasonic cleansing and go back together with it.

That one was carried out by a dealer...........

[BTfd2e93]

not trying to steal this thread .... but

do we know if any further analysis/stats have been taken about how the LN retro has been standing up? last time i checked, when i install mine - i think the highest mileage on the retrofit of their customer was 50K miles? (since no sample was available for 50K+ on an LN retro ...... ) has one been checked further on?

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by BTfd2e93

do we know if any further analysis/stats have been taken about how the LN retro has been standing up? last time i checked, when i install mine - i think the highest mileage on the retrofit of their customer was 50K miles? (since no sample was available for 50K+ on an LN retro ...... ) has one been checked further on?

Well the premise to your question assumes that you should keep any serviceable bearing in a car for longer than 50k miles. For single row bearing cars at least, I definitely recall reading that this is not best practice.

[Steve Tinker]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Well the premise to your question assumes that you should keep any serviceable bearing in a car for longer than 50k miles. For single row bearing cars at least, I definitely recall reading that this is not best practice.

True, as per BTfd says BUT if the recommendation from LN is to replace the ceramic single row bearing every 50k miles, I wonder if anyone has actually done that yet - installed the bearing, ran it for 50k miles, replaced it and sent the old bearing to LN for analysis?

Has LN inspected any removed bearings and quantified the wear characteristics with enough evidence to confirm that the predicted 50k mile lifespan is correct ??
I'm not talking about LN / Flat 6's dedicated test mule engines but the bearing upgrades bought by actual M96 engine owners "off the street" .

[Jake Raby]

To date we have had 4 of our early retrofit customers reach the 50K mileage with their single row retrofits and have the IMS Solution retrofit update applied..

We've been doing these retrofits longer than anyone, I have several dual row IMSBs with well over 100K miles on them in the hands of the owners that we did the work for.

[BTfd2e93]

hi jake ... so to answer my question, you've inspected "several" dual row LN retrofits ... which have over 100K on them? how are they holding up?

i have a dual row retrofit, so thats why im particularly interested.

[Steve Tinker]

^^^^^ me too ^^^^^
Mine was one of the earliest to be fitted here in Oz in 2010 (Australians are a sceptical lot), again a dual row retrofit but with less than 30,000km now completed on the installation.
A summary of what JR has found in the 100k bearings might quieten the (still ongoing)naysayers.....

[Perfectlap]

Seems to me that telling people what is probably the case (that the bearings all look A+ after 100K miles) would only encourage people to treat a serviceable-bearing as the final bearing. A better question might be is it cost effective to have the retrofit bearings "core-exchanged" with fresh internals come at least clutch replacement time. This might encourage people be good boys and girls and maintain what is probably a spotless record on engine failures providing that they service the IMSB on a regular interval. A practice which might have prevented this from becoming an issue in the first order since the root cause seems to be oil starvation leading to degradation and contamination. The LNE bearings seems to raise the bar of how much punishment the part can sustain but the need for servicing doesn't go away.

[jotoole]

..........

[healthservices]

Originally Posted by Series9

I'm thinking I remember now why I don't post here very much......

I think most of people who post here often think the same, yet many still come back and I appreciate that many still do.

[rp17]

Originally Posted by healthservices

I think most of people who post here often think the same, yet many still come back and I appreciate that many still do.

I agree. Thanks to you all.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by BTfd2e93

hi jake ... so to answer my question, you've inspected "several" dual row LN retrofits ... which have over 100K on them? how are they holding up?

i have a dual row retrofit, so thats why im particularly interested.

The key to making a retrofitted engine live is following the directives and only retrofit a known healthy engine. If the engine has issues, rectify them and then retrofit. A retrofit is not magical.

Service every 5K miles/ 6 months (at max) and use Joe Gibbs DT40 oil.Follow the Mfr's directives concerning the interval that the retrofit bearing should be proactively replaced.

The Classic Dual Row has a 75K mile service interval. The Clasdsic Single Row has a 50K mile service interval. Neither should be operated past this mileage point.

See here:
Service Intervals

[trimer]

I just had my bearing done on 996 with the pro bearing. Am I supposed to send you anything to log my vin and bearing id Jake?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by trimer

I just had my bearing done on 996 with the pro bearing. Am I supposed to send you anything to log my vin and bearing id Jake?

Nothing should be sent to me.. Follow the details on the LN Engineering website to register your unit.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by BIGJake111

Regardless of morals I don't see how any of these sellers have the guts to sell a car with a dosing ims knowing it is likely to go out on a test drive. It is a very immediate issue as we all know. failure appears to happen within the first week or so of ownership on these guardian cars. How pins and needles it must be for the seller on the test drives is unimaginable.

Or to someone who saved up and / or bought their own car after decades of underpaying jobs and a decade of self-employment. Then the buying risk FAR outweighs the worries about selling it to some teenager who's dad is buying it...

When you earn the money you use to buy your first (well, next) P car you will feel different.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

Being self-employed myself, I own each boiler I touch...and have no issue red-flagging it if the cheap customer wants a dangerous issue bypassed or patched. If it's in your shop, and cust does not want to take it to your standards (I Assume you do have some standards) then you pass. Pretty simple.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Yes, thats a Preferred Installer, not a Certified Installer. Huge difference between the two. Also, that statement also means that its not fully qualified, because it doesn't qualify for a warranty.

From this side of the fence the primary concern is the effectiveness and long term service of the retrofitted bearing. Constantly these bearings are being swapped from engines that were found to be previously failing. Shops are not carrying out pre- inspections before retrofits are done. I find issues with engines and DQ those engines routinely, these things can be anything from a sump full of IMS failure debris, to a chunk of a timing chain roller, of a handful of timing chain wear rail material. At that point, we stop and go into a reactive mode. Thats the other part of the procedure I developed, and every engine is presumed guilty until proven innocent. When I instruct classes all across N. America I ask on the beginning of day #2, who carries out a pre- qualification before carrying out an IMS Retrofit. All year long, I have had TWO people out of about 400 raise their hands. Put clearly- an IMS Procedure isn't completed, as directed, without the engine being pre- qualified first.

Yes, it may be the customer's decision, because it's his car. You can trust that even if that customer makes the decision to take the risk, and the engine experiences a failure that he still won't be happy. What is "ok" today and seemingly going to save him money, is not going to be okay if things don't work out.

As long as he doesn't make phone calls this way, and he is responsible for his own decisions and risks, all is well for everyone except for him.

When I act as the customer's advisor I treat the car like it was my own. That means that at times I have disassembled a complete engine just to clean debris from it when carrying out a retrofit and caught one at mid failure, like this one. It didn't cost him anything, because I knew it would cost me everything if it failed. All he did was sign on the dotted line saying he had ben informed and that he granted us permission to strip the whole thing. Did I make any money? No. Did I lose any money? Yes. Did I retain a reputation and keep my character? Yes. Thats all that matters here.

If the proper steps are carried out after a failure of this level, the engine at least stands
a chance to survive. These steps are extensive and time consuming. If those things are not done, it doesn't stand a chance at living a full life.

The fine line between being a "Hero" or a "Zero" is so faint that its invisible. One second is all that separates the two.

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others, and some of us have had IMS Retrofit bearings fail, and others haven't. IMSR #415 was finished here yesterday, and I post inspect it on Monday, just like I pre- inspected it last Monday.

Please note the portion in red. This is a stand-up guy.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Series9

The customer has a receipt for the work that says "NO WARRANTY DUE TO DEBRIS FOUND FROM A FAILING BEARING".

This is a case of doing the best we could given the customer's financial parameters. It was either try to save it or part out the car. The customer was fully informed when he made the decision to proceed.

I feel good about the work we did and I stand by our decisions. I run an honest shop that respects my customers.

If he sells the car and presents the paperwork for the bearing to a prospective buyer, the buyer will see documentation of what happened.


AND, I've been pre qualifying cars since before the LN "code of conduct" even existed. This car passed visual inspection of the pan and filter, and passed the cam timing check with the laptop before I started work.




I'm thinking I remember now why I don't post here very much......

Before you started work?? You, yourself, ran it with that bearing??

You should have passed. Not everyone can afford to do it right. Do you really think he will present that paperwork, or just hear verbally "new IMS!!!"????

I don't think you should be doing engine work. Maybe more oil changes and AOS jobs, but nothing internal. This does nobody any good but your own bank account.