As close as it gets: IMS Save!

[Series9]

Here's one I did this week.

The car had a weird rattling noise when I pulled it in the shop.

I've never seen one this far gone that hadn't totally failed:

[Series9]

This customer trailered his car from about 75 miles away. If he had driven, it would have never made it.

The car has 44k miles.

2000 2.7, twin-row bearing.

[78F350]

Thanks for posting that. Nice to see those get caught before catastrophic failure. Any idea how long it had been since the last oil change and if the owner or shop had been examining the filter? For my $ I can see the bright side of a failure as a chance for an engine upgrade, but I have pretty much decided that I am going to put one of Mr Raby's IMS Guardians in as soon as I get the basic to-do list completed.

All the helicopters I have flown have a 'chip detector' installed for the engine and gearboxes, which is basically the same thing. If the warning light comes on, I don't fly to the next repair shop. I land.

[Series9]

The good news about this one is that it was failing on the IMS side, not the engine side.

All the metal was isolated in the shaft. Although it took a while to clean up, it was contained.

The pan and filter were clean.


I fly turboprops with chip detectors, this would not have set that off. That's the scary part.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

All the metal was isolated in the shaft. Although it took a while to clean up, it was contained.The pan and filter were clean.

Hmm. Clean to the eye or clean to the tolerance of the bearings? Did you perform an engine oil analysis to see how much additional metal is in the oil?

I'd rebuild the entire engine. Just sayin'.

[Jake Raby]

Many people who get the guardian will remove it once it alarms and sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer.

It happens all the time.. I never dreamed it would happen, but I've busted at least a dozen people red handed that have done this over the last 3 years of the Guardian being on the market.

That said, Series 9... That engine isn't saved yet. In its current state with metal debris suspended that heavily in the oil, the engine isn't qualified for an LN retrofit. You'll have to carry out extensive oil system flushes, employ a spin on filter adaptor (to omit the bypass system that will send unfiltered oil to the rest of the engine) and then fit with a filter mag.

Even with all that done, the chances of the retrofit component being taken out by even the slightest residual amount of this ferromagnetic material is great. Looks like a good place to employ a competitors product, to me.. Please post the results! :-)

That said, this amount of debris would have set an IMS Alert with an IMS Guardian. The engines and IMSBs I killed here on purpose during the development were often times not as great as this one is illustrated.

If this engine was at my facility, it would come all the way apart and be ultrasonically cleaned. Why? Because I want to maintain my record of 414 IMS Retrofits with never having a post- process failure and if a retrofitted bearing that we install fails later, we aren't just another shop that can throw the finger at the retrofit component as being bad. No retrofit component can live through super heat treated ferromagnetic debris being suspended in the oil, and it won't just take out the IMS Bearing, it'll take out the oil pump, main and rod bearings and all the rest of the internally lubricated components...

The smaller and finer the debris is, the easier it suspends in the oil and the further it travels. I'd rather have chunks in the oil as tiny, microscopic particles.

Yes, we've learned from the mistakes of others.

The Code Of Conduct that our IMS Solution Certified Installers must operate under will not allow them to apply a retrofit component to an engine that has seen a failure of this degree thats been pictured here. One of them did this last year and when he returned the old bearing to register it, his Certification was pulled within 2 hours.

Approach with care and warn the owner. Lots of engines that are "saved", shouldn't be. The perfect engine for a retrofit is the one with a "perfect" IMS Bearing at the time of retrofit.

Also, trust that the outer seal fails at the same rate as the inner seal of the IMS Bearing. As the balls and races lose control the wobbling and vibration take the seals out simultaneously. On the outer side of the IMSB high amounts of engine oil are present to wash the metal off the bearing and into the oil system. This is why the outside of the bearing appeared to be clean. It may have been clean, but the debris is just inside every nook and cranny of the engine, now.

On the innermost side, thats pictured and shows all the material, there's no engine oil supply to wash the metal away and elsewhere into the engine. This is why it appears that all the metal was caught in the shaft, but thats not the case. I have done the forensics on these episodes a few dozen times and can state this with a degree of certainty.

None of this is new.. Its not only common sense, its posted and stated many times over, including here:
http://imsretrofit.com/bearing-already-failing/

[Series9]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

... the engine isn't qualified for an LN retrofit.

Actually, it is.

See here from the LN website:

[Series9]

Originally Posted by thstone

Hmm. Clean to the eye or clean to the tolerance of the bearings? Did you perform an engine oil analysis to see how much additional metal is in the oil?

I'd rebuild the entire engine. Just sayin'.

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

I hear you brother! I am the guy who has always said that swapping in a replacement or eBay engine is by far the most cost effective solution - these cars are simply not worth the rebuild in most cases.

But thinking that this engine can simply and cheaply be repaired is a recipe for failure. The damage has already done to all of the friction surfaces and 500 mile oil change intervals after the fact won't fix it.

The engine can certainly "pull through" and run for awhile longer if that is all the owner is looking for, but eventually it will likely suffer a major failure due to the damage that wasn't repaired. Or worse, the "just-get-it-running-again" car gets sold and the next owner is stuck with an engine that is living on borrowed time.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

Being self-employed myself, I own each boiler I touch...and have no issue red-flagging it if the cheap customer wants a dangerous issue bypassed or patched. If it's in your shop, and cust does not want to take it to your standards (I Assume you do have some standards) then you pass. Pretty simple.

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by 78F350

Thanks for posting that. Nice to see those get caught before catastrophic failure. Any idea how long it had been since the last oil change and if the owner or shop had been examining the filter? For my $ I can see the bright side of a failure as a chance for an engine upgrade, but I have pretty much decided that I am going to put one of Mr Raby's IMS Guardians in as soon as I get the basic to-do list completed.

All the helicopters I have flown have a 'chip detector' installed for the engine and gearboxes, which is basically the same thing. If the warning light comes on, I don't fly to the next repair shop. I land.

be advised that the Guardian is not designed to tell you that you need to replace the imsb. once the Guardian gives an alarm, the motor has to be rebuilt because all the metal will have gone through the motor. All the guardian does is give Jake Raby a rsady supply of new business for his motor rebhilding bhsiness.

Many people who get the guardian will remove it once it alarms and sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer.

[rp17]

What prompted the owner to bring the car into the shop?

[Series9]

He just purchased the car and thought an IMS retrofit was a good idea.

[rp17]

Originally Posted by Series9

He just purchased the car and thought an IMS retrofit was a good idea.

Wow...You should of told him to buy a lottery ticket that same day. Can't imagine getting that lucky twice in a life time.

[78F350]

Originally Posted by Series9

He just purchased the car and thought an IMS retrofit was a good idea.

Many people who get the guardian will remove it once it alarms and sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer.

It happens all the time.. I never dreamed it would happen, but I've busted at least a dozen people red handed that have done this over the last 3 years of the Guardian being on the market.

Makes me wonder if that was the case in this particular car. Is there any way for an owner/buyer to tell if a car has had a Guardian installed then removed?

Probably not any legal recourse for an as-is type of sale, but there are ways of making a dishonest seller regretful....

[epapp]

At least it HAD a symptom...the rattling. The metal debris going only into the IMS tube is a scary possibility...but if I heard a weird rattling coming from that area the IMS would be on the table as a list of possible sources

[epapp]

So the stock filter housing allows an amount of unfiltered oil to circulate always? Or only once the sprung bypass is loaded with a certain amount of oil pressure?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by epapp

So the stock filter housing allows an amount of unfiltered oil to circulate always? Or only once the sprung bypass is loaded with a certain amount of oil pressure?

And after the relief spring sees thousands of thermal cycles and becomes weak.. Or after its a decade old.

The filter thats used and how clean that filter is also increases the loads that the bypass sees.. Thats why long service intervals that are recommended by the factory suck so bad, the dirtier the filter, the more oil is bypassed. Some cars will see some bypass oil at all times because of variables like these.

When a failure occurs the filter does it's job well, until the pressure within the filter housing is elevated due to a partially blocked filter, and the bypass opens. Its at that moment when the main and rod bearings see collateral damage from debris suspended in the oil. Its pressure fed death.

[BruceH]

I believe the stock housing allows bypassed oil on start up. For that reason I just went to the LN Spin on adapter.

[BoxsterSteve]

^^ +1