What's your opinnion of the P-Car Motto?

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

People like what they like... there's no Right or Wrong with that. And as I said Porsche does make a Good Car. But, a couple of things strike me.

First, there are a lot of Brand Loyal people which give me the impression that their experience is narrow, perhaps limited to only Porsche. How many other Performance Cars have they owned or had any intimate experience with? If they had never experienced a Porsche, would they be so enamored with it? The same can be said about lacking experience with other Marques.

Porsche's rise to prominence could have less to do with their cars as it could have with the fact that Germany sustained an Occupation Force for nearly 50 years. The first Porsches were experienced by Servicemen there on Occupation Duty, who either brought home these cars, or stories of them. Without the US Market, Porsche would not have survived to the present day.

The second thing is that many have lost touch (or were never in touch), with what a Sports Car is truly about. They were always cantankerous, underpowered, unreliable, and some even downright uncomfortable. What they offered in return was quick reflexes, much greater Driver Involvement, and an Adrenaline Rush far surpassing their actual speed. They were not for everybody, and didn't try to be.

Pretty much all of today's Sports Cars are cast in a different mold. They ask too little of their Drivers and so perhaps some of the appeal has changed. Manufacturers (including Porsche) no longer cater to a Performance Ideal, rather they cater to the Driver.

Plush Interiors, Drivers Aids, Creature Comforts have all made most Sports Cars today Fat and Brutal. Instead of the Driver having to wring the most from a small engine, they have become Brutes, doing the work for you. God Forbid the Steering is Hard, let's add Power Assist. Driving on Hot days? Well, lets give you some AC. Tired of the Engine Hum? OK, here's Carnegie Hall in a Box. All the while bloating today's Cars more than a Weight Watchers tour of the Krispy Creme Factory. I mean the new 997TT weighs in at a Hefty 3500+lbs. - Sedan weight for a Sports Car?? Shame on Stuttgart!

Porsche is as guilty, or more so, than many. I find it interesting that such a Perfect Car supports such a vast AfterMarket. Just check out any Excellence or Panorama to see what I mean. If the Cars were that spectacular, why do people spend additional Thousands to make the Car what Porsche should have in the first place?

I bet that if today's Sports Cars followed the Time-Honored formula of what a Sports Car truly is, this Forum would be sporting about 1500 Members rather than the 4000 it does...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[JackG]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

The second thing is that many have lost touch (or were never in touch), with what a Sports Car is truly about. They were always cantankerous, underpowered, unreliable, and some even downright uncomfortable. What they offered in return was quick reflexes, much greater Driver Involvement, and an Adrenaline Rush far surpassing their actual speed. They were not for everybody, and didn't try to be.

Pretty much all of today's Sports Cars are cast in a different mold. They ask too little of their Drivers and so perhaps some of the appeal has changed. Manufacturers (including Porsche) no longer cater to a Performance Ideal, rather they cater to the Driver.

Plush Interiors, Drivers Aids, Creature Comforts have all made most Sports Cars today Fat and Brutal. Instead of the Driver having to wring the most from a small engine, they have become Brutes, doing the work for you. God Forbid the Steering is Hard, let's add Power Assist. Driving on Hot days? Well, lets give you some AC. Tired of the Engine Hum? OK, here's Carnegie Hall in a Box. All the while bloating today's Cars more than a Weight Watchers tour of the Krispy Creme Factory. I mean the new 997TT weighs in at a Hefty 3500+lbs. - Sedan weight for a Sports Car?? Shame on Stuttgart!


Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

True MN, but...

Does your telephone still have a coiled cord, and a rotary dial? Still using 8 track tapes? Is you TV black and white? We all know the answer to those questions.

You seem to be caught up in the romanticism of the old-timey sports car. Uncomfortable, unreliable, and unwanted by the vast majority of today's buyers. They are cool cars, fun to have as an occasional driver, and worthy of restoration. But if Porsche were making the equivalent of a TR6 today, well... it's likely there would be no Porsche.

Cheers!

Jack

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by JackG

True MN, but...

Does your telephone still have a coiled cord, and a rotary dial? Still using 8 track tapes? Is you TV black and white? We all know the answer to those questions.

You seem to be caught up in the romanticism of the old-timey sports car. Uncomfortable, unreliable, and unwanted by the vast majority of today's buyers. They are cool cars, fun to have as an occasional driver, and worthy of restoration. But if Porsche were making the equivalent of a TR6 today, well... it's likely there would be no Porsche.

Cheers!

Jack

Hi,

I respect your opinion, but think you missed my point. Those earlier Cars were Sports Cars, they defined the Breed.

Today's Sports Cars, with a few exceptions, have strayed away from that definition without redefining it. They are Sports Cars by Marketing and Concensus. That alone doesn't make them so...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

Certainly, what we expect of sports cars today has changed.

I was looking at my buddy's new zo6. Amazing power (505HP), docile at idle, rides comfortably, has auto climate control. etc. You get the picture.

So, to my mind there is no older equiv. to this type of car. We have simply created a new breed of "performance car."

On balance, to me, this is a GOOD thing.

But hey, I really like the Miata and the z3 from BMW, which really are in the older sports car mode.

It IS a great time to be alive, no! So many choices, so little time.

[Perfectlap]

sports cars I've driven since buying my BoxsterS (not 100% on the model years):
911 993
911 996
944
M3 97, 2001
M5 2002
330ci(?)
Z3
M coupe thing
SLK
SL 500
C thing with the sports package
GTi 1999 and Turbo Golf
Corrado

Corvette 88? with a HUGE engine upgrade guy went through like 4 trannies.
S2000
STi (holy cow that turbo kicks in like a hurricane)
Mini Cooper S
that big Jag convertible thing (is that really a sports car?)
was a passenger in 04 Corvette (yellow/black)



My conclusion:

I wouldn't trade my BoxsterS for ANY OF THEM. The first time I heard that engine/intake sound coming from behind my ears, my eyes
and when I got on those brakes and the way it took a turn
. I was --no kidding-- salivating.
I guess with a mid engine Porsche you either get it (the bug) or you don't.

p.s.
its ironic but my $7,000 Miata made more of an impression on me than any of those cars above. It might be the only new car with a retro feel, haven't driven that Elise yet though..

[Uncle Bob]

I've been bit in the arse by buying anything just because it's a certain manufacturer. Things change too much. I drove about 6 other cars besides the Porsche, but I have to admit, it was to compare them to the Porsche. As this was as much of a Porsche as I could afford, that factored into the choice as well.
I absolutely love automobiles, From Isettas to Rolls Royce and all inbetween or outside the box. I'd just as soon watch Yugo races than anyother television as well.

I remember several years ago....I attend a spiritual retreat in a Benedictine Monestary in Mission, BC every year for the past 14 years. There is a dedicated group of us who meet there and it's a great experience. I was sitting in a rather large (25) group on a Saturday night and was (for me) very much at ease and quiet. Suddenly I realized my heart rate was dramatically increasing and soon my breathing. (we aren't meditating...just sitting quietly while one speaks at a time). I sort of 'came to' and realized that in the distance I could hear drag races at Mission Raceway in the background. That was the subliminal source of my heartrate increase!

It's in my blood.


OK, I digress.....I received a wonderful letter written personally to me from Peter Schwarzenbauer, president of PCNA. Probably a form letter, no doubt, but nevertheless it impressed me. The 'slogan' that jumped out at me from the letter:

"The car you've dreamed of owning is the same one our designers and engineers dreamed of building."

That does it for me!

[Ronzi]

I'm not sure when the "Porsche ... there is no substitute" slogan first appeared, but it goes back at least to the '80s.
If anybody out there knows, please post, because I for one would like to know when it originated.
I have always felt that the meaning of the slogan referred more to the uniqueness of the design and engineering of the car than it did to an emotional appeal. Rear engine, air cooling, three times as many engine components as any other car, torsion bar suspension, very high build quality, and a silhoutte (911) that is probably recognizable to more people than any other car, except maybe for the VW beetle.
Some of those unique qualities have either been lost, diluted, or superseded by newer designs, but a surprising number of them are as true today as they were 25 or 30 years ago.

[JackG]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I respect your opinion, but think you missed my point. Those earlier Cars were Sports Cars, they defined the Breed.

Today's Sports Cars, with a few exceptions, have strayed away from that definition without redefining it. They are Sports Cars by Marketing and Concensus. That alone doesn't make them so...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

I have to disagree. Those earlier cars defined what a sports cars was... back then. Modern sports cars have simply re-defined what a sports car is today. And it's not a bad definition. Comfort, reliability, and a performance envelope that generally far exceeds the earlier car's capabilities. What's not to like?

You are correct in that today's offerings are indeed Sports Cars by Concensus. Everyone agrees that they are, and your opinion that they somehow are not doesn't make it so.

We shall agree to disagree, huh?

Jack

[wild1poet2]

Whatever these things are, I like em. Two wheels, four wheels, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinders. So many configurations. I'm a Moto Ho!!

[Perfectlap]

oh by the way,
I agree with MN. The cars have changed greatly over the years with reliability making ownership to the common man more of a possibility.
But these new developments that that have worked their way into sports cars
are a disaster to preserving the TRUE sports car driving experience.

STEER
THROTLE
SHIFT
BRAKE

these^ are the four fundamental things that define the sports car experience as Senna said "I am opposed to anything that diminishes the role of the driver".
When you "over assist" the sports car driver to the point where driving a sports car and four door touring car become TOO SIMILAR you've lost the plot completely.
And that's what is happening to the majority of Porsche cars today. They are being produced to build a Porsche super company and they've relegated the true sports car experience to the Boxsters,GT3's, CaymanS,CGT's for the enthusiasts to pick from while bloated Cayennes, 911's and (some Boxsters) pay the bills to build this Porsche super company.
c'est la vie (now lets check out thos Panoz).

[Uncle Bob]

This is a worthy vehicle of being called a "sports car", imho. Fairly affordable as well