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Old 07-03-2011, 08:26 AM   #1
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Start your box w/ no clutch...

Ran across this the other day. Pretty cool mod to say the least...and the most inexpensive mod to date.

Just when you think you have done it all....Now no need to depress the clutch anymore to hear that "click" before the key will let you turm to start...

Just be careful the car is in neutral!

http://boxsters.addr.com/hacks/clutch_switch.htm

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Old 07-03-2011, 09:06 AM   #2
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It won't be "inexpensive" the first time you forget to check the shifter position in a parking lot!!!!!!!!!!
All cars used to lack the interlock between starter and clutch....but they had big chromy bumpers back then. I wouldn't mod it.....
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:40 AM   #3
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I do this with all my cars. It reduces the stress on the crank while starting. I just added the habbit of flopping the shifter before turning the starter (kind of like making the habbit of pressing the clutch )
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
...It reduces the stress on the crank while starting....
Can you explain that?
My thinking is that the the input shaft and other transmission components that are active while in neutral (trans pump?) would be a higher load than when the clutch is depressed. Though the difference is probably minimal.
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
I do this with all my cars. It reduces the stress on the crank while starting. I just added the habbit of flopping the shifter before turning the starter (kind of like making the habbit of pressing the clutch )
This is good until a mechanic bumps the starter while it is in gear. Had this mod on one of my previous vehicles and had a mechanic smack a tool box with the car because it was left in gear and caused damage! Highly do not recommend this mod. It just takes once, and really?!?! How hard is it to push in the clutch to start the car?
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked & Blown
Can you explain that?
My thinking is that the the input shaft and other transmission components that are active while in neutral (trans pump?) would be a higher load than when the clutch is depressed. Though the difference is probably minimal.

"The clutch sits in between the transmission and engine. It's bolted to the flywheel, and the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft. Each time the clutch pedal is pushed in, the throw-out bearing pushes an amount of force on the pressure plate to dis-engage the clutch. This force applied to the pressure plate obviously puts an amount of force on the crankshaft."

"when starting the engine with the clutch pedal down, it's putting amount of force on the crank, and since the engine was off, there has not been any oil flow or oil pressure at all, possibly resulting in excessive wear on the thrust bearing. "

From: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/342560-crankwalk-depth-explanation.html
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnoice
This is good until a mechanic bumps the starter while it is in gear. Had this mod on one of my previous vehicles and had a mechanic smack a tool box with the car because it was left in gear and caused damage! Highly do not recommend this mod. It just takes once, and really?!?! How hard is it to push in the clutch to start the car?
I've been doing this for 15 years, never had a mechanic damage one of my cars. Cars didn't have this switch in the 80s. I guess people were expected to know how to drive all by themselves until 1990.

Even if the mechanic did, it would be covered by his insurance and I could use a a respray of my front bumper.
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:58 PM   #8
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This reminds me of when a broken timing belt left me stranded in a '94 Integra. I had no way to get it on to the trailer, so I shoved a wad of paper behind the clutch switch, so I could run it on with the starter!
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Old 07-03-2011, 05:35 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by stephen wilson
This reminds me of when a broken timing belt left me stranded in a '94 Integra. I had no way to get it on to the trailer, so I shoved a wad of paper behind the clutch switch, so I could run it on with the starter!
Another good reason not to artificially disable your car. If your clutch hydraulics goes out for some reason, you will still be able to start and drive your car, shifting clutchless to limp home.
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Old 07-03-2011, 06:06 PM   #10
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Another thing to point out, if you have the ROW flash for the DME (I have it and it is pretty nice) you do not need to push in the clutch. So it would seem only the good old US of A needs this extra step.
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Old 07-03-2011, 06:26 PM   #11
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You are...

... absolutely correct.
The DOT requires this interlock which is not integrated into the RoW cars.
These regulations stem from countless lawsuits, mostly from distracted drivers.
It became a BIG deal right after AUDIs we driving off "on their own" back in the 70s.
The DOT was moved to regulate the clutch interlock as well as the brake interlock for automatic transmissions.
Bypassing the clutch microswitch was the first hack I ever did on my car. The same day I bought it, as soon as I got home.
Later I also remapped my ECU to RoW specs which then doesn't look for the switch.
Happy Boxstering,
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:02 AM   #12
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After retiring after 35 yrs in the insurance industry and safety profession, I fully realize that in most cases we humans need layers of precautions to prevent serious accidents. Actually, you should place the shifter in neutral as an extra safety step when starting the car. This would prevent a "foot slip off clutch" accident, or absent minded clutch release after starting.

One may get away with a dangerous procedure/habit for a lifetime.....or just one day because they are upset or distracted for a second, a small step is forgotten (popping the lever into neutral) and it cost you a bumper or somebody's lower legs.

Don't think that I don't take plenty of calculated risks where the frequency and severity of the accident would be minimal....but this risk just isn't worth it and has so little benefit compared to the potential loss.

Bob
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
"The clutch sits in between the transmission and engine. It's bolted to the flywheel, and the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft. Each time the clutch pedal is pushed in, the throw-out bearing pushes an amount of force on the pressure plate to dis-engage the clutch. This force applied to the pressure plate obviously puts an amount of force on the crankshaft."

"when starting the engine with the clutch pedal down, it's putting amount of force on the crank, and since the engine was off, there has not been any oil flow or oil pressure at all, possibly resulting in excessive wear on the thrust bearing. "

From: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/342560-crankwalk-depth-explanation.html
Ah, lateral crankshaft bearing load from the TO. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:33 AM   #14
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Agreed but..

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
"
"when starting the engine with the clutch pedal down, it's putting amount of force on the crank, and since the engine was off, there has not been any oil flow or oil pressure at all, possibly resulting in excessive wear on the thrust bearing. "
When starting there is minimal oil pressure while cranking, but any good oil will leave a microscopic film wherever it was. Otherwise we'd be replacing rings, bearings pistons cams etc all the time!

But I submit that the 'damage' to the thrust bearing caused by the short time it takes to fire the engine, is far worse when you sit at a traffic light with the car in gear and the clutch disengaged.

That's why when sitting a light I never have the car in gear, the clutch is engaged and my foot isn't resting on the pedal. When the light changes yellow for the oncoming traffic I slide into gear and am ready for the green.

Back in the day, British cars used a carbon release bearing, rather than a true bearing with balls in it. People used to come into the shop for a new clutch when all it needed was a new carbon bearing. In all my cars. over 40 of them, I have never replaced a clutch, release bearing or pressure plate or thrust bearing using the method I described above.

My 2 cents!
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tinsby
When starting there is minimal oil pressure while cranking, but any good oil will leave a microscopic film wherever it was. Otherwise we'd be replacing rings, bearings pistons cams etc all the time!

But I submit that the 'damage' to the thrust bearing caused by the short time it takes to fire the engine, is far worse when you sit at a traffic light with the car in gear and the clutch disengaged.

That's why when sitting a light I never have the car in gear, the clutch is engaged and my foot isn't resting on the pedal. When the light changes yellow for the oncoming traffic I slide into gear and am ready for the green.

Back in the day, British cars used a carbon release bearing, rather than a true bearing with balls in it. People used to come into the shop for a new clutch when all it needed was a new carbon bearing. In all my cars. over 40 of them, I have never replaced a clutch, release bearing or pressure plate or thrust bearing using the method I described above.

My 2 cents!
I guess I don't understand how the two are related? One is starting the car, the other is sitting at a stop light.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobiam
After retiring after 35 yrs in the insurance industry and safety profession, I fully realize that in most cases we humans need layers of precautions to prevent serious accidents. Actually, you should place the shifter in neutral as an extra safety step when starting the car. This would prevent a "foot slip off clutch" accident, or absent minded clutch release after starting.

One may get away with a dangerous procedure/habit for a lifetime.....or just one day because they are upset or distracted for a second, a small step is forgotten (popping the lever into neutral) and it cost you a bumper or somebody's lower legs.

Don't think that I don't take plenty of calculated risks where the frequency and severity of the accident would be minimal....but this risk just isn't worth it and has so little benefit compared to the potential loss.

Bob
This frustrates me. I'm having a hard time staying on topic with my response, but I'm going to try really hard. Here it is: Have you ever actually seen what happens and how much the car moves when you try to start it while it's in gear?
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:27 AM   #17
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Wow...didn't know I would initiate so many responses on the topic.

For what it's worth, I couldn't be happier about the mod....

Also think about this for a second...

If a mechanic or someone else driving your car did not know this mod was done, they would most likely depress the clutch when they started the car, which would take the car out of gear if it wasn't already in neutral...

I would think you would be a little nuts to try and turn the car over while a gear is selected and the clutch was not engaged.
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Stroked & Blown
Ah, lateral crankshaft bearing load from the TO. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
Play in the thrust bearing leads to play in the crank which can then cause wear on the other bearings. They refer to it as crank walk.

It does force the starter to spin the transmission when starting, which sits in tranny fluid and adds extra load to the starter. I had to press the clutch in to get my car to start one morning when it was -14F.
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:48 AM   #19
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Achieving this through a RoW flash is really a better solution, but either way, as long as you're not a moron (and don't let other morons drive your car), I don't see any practical safety compromise here.

Sitting at a stop in gear with the clutch pushed in isn't exactly ideal, but it's far better than having to push the clutch in during starting. Sure, there is oil film on things (especially with a good synthetic oil), but it's still a far cry from the level of lubrication you have once the engine is making oil pressure.

This issue becomes even more important for those of us who have stiffer than stock clutches. Crank walk is NOT a good thing.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:52 AM   #20
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Ah just to help we are talking thrust load on the crank shaft (straight down the length if it) not a lateral or radial load..

What the best way to get hold of and install the ROW flash?

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