For you watch lovers....

[Y2BOX]

Hey MNBoxster...whats your view on the Omega Speedmaster?? (Latest model, medium face)...... :dance:

[dmcutter]

Now I'm not one to engage in on line bashing, but in this case I feel compelled to weigh in. Jim, you have opened your mouth, clearly, without knowing what you are talking about in this particular case. The chrono in question is made by Eterna, an excellent watch company (surely you're familiar with their COSC Kon Tiki dive watch) using a Valjoux 7750 movement. The Valjoux is used by most of the high end makers for their chronos except for the rare few with an in house movement. I doubt you will find a chrono with a saphire crystal, Valjoux movement, and solid steel bracelet with solid end links for a couple hundred dollars.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by dmcutter

Now I'm not one to engage in on line bashing, but in this case I feel compelled to weigh in. Jim, you have opened your mouth, clearly, without knowing what you are talking about in this particular case. The chrono in question is made by Eterna, an excellent watch company (surely you're familiar with their COSC Kon Tiki dive watch) using a Valjoux 7750 movement. The Valjoux is used by most of the high end makers for their chronos except for the rare few with an in house movement. I doubt you will find a chrono with a saphire crystal, Valjoux movement, and solid steel bracelet with solid end links for a couple hundred dollars.

Hi,

No sir, I beg to disagree. The Valjoux 7750 Engine was first produced in 1974 as an alternative to the expensive Auto Winding movements available at the time.

It is an economy Engine designed to be cheaply manufactured to allow Fine and Luxury Watchmakers to produce lines in the mid-priced range and thereby increase their Market breadth. It substitutes many wedges, rather than traditional precision screws, and the packaging of many component groups onto large plates to help it achieve this ease of manufacture. But, keep in mind that the sole purpose of it's creation was to be cheaper to produce. It's a good, though not the best movement available in it's price range - compromises were incorporated into the design.

It is not made by Eterna, but by Valjoux SA. Valjoux offers the 7750 Engine in 3 distinct levels of quality and sophistication - the Elaboré, Top, and Chronomètre. The Porsche Design watch uses the Elabore' movement, the most basic of the 7750 Engines. It has also been versatile enough to have several variants produced from the same basic design - the 7760 (Manual Wind w/Date), the 7751 and 7761 (Manual Wind w/ Moon Phase and Date), 7758 (Manual Wind w/ Moon Phase) and the 7765 (Manual Wind w/o 12-Hour Counter).

Prior to the 1950's, chronometres were not extremely accurate as they beat in the 18,000 BPH (Beats per Hour or every 0.2 seconds) (or VPH in the case of a Quartz Engine) . To improve accuracy, it was known that this BPH needed to be increased. Steadily, through the 1960's, BPH increased until Zenith produced the first Engine to achieve 36,000 BPH in 1969. The Valjoux 7750 has a BPH of only 28,000, repectable, but certainly not leading edge.

Also, the 7750 is the bain of most watch repairers - it is very difficult to repair. Major portions of the movement are mounted on large plates rather than each having it own distinctive mounting. This means that to clean/adjust one part, you're disconnecting several adjacent pieces, which now have to be re-aligned and set along with the selected part. This also makes them very expensive to repair - sometimes upwards of 50-75% of the Purchase Price of the watch - hardly an outstanding feature.

The Kon-Tiki, while a good watch, is far from the finest example of the Watchmakers art. It was a commemorative put out by Eterna in 1974 (27 years after Thor Hyerdahl's famed voyage - he never wore one). Heyerdahl wore an Eterna with the Eterna-matic engine, a rotor-based engine (produced in-house) running on Ball Bearings - 5 to be precise - an Eterna trademark. He wore this watch because Eterna was a major undewriter of his expedition.

Also, Eterna used the 7750 only in it's Kon Tiki. It usually used ETA Engines produced by ETA S.A., which it spunoff in the early 1930's from Eterna S.A. . ETA makes some fine engines which are used by vitually every large Watchmaker in Switzerland.

Eterna S.A. was purchased by Ferdinand Alexander Porsche in the mid-'90s. 'Butzi', Ferdi's Grandson, was in the design studio at Porsche when the 911 was originally penned and is said to have contributed greatly to the basic design. He left Porsche AG and founded Porsche Design in 1973, a completely separate company. Their first product was a chronograph made by Orfina and used the Valjoux 7750 Engine. Later, this movement was switched to the Lemania 5100 Engine as this was deemed more rugged. Their current chronograph reverted back to the 7750 Engine, but only because it allowed them to meet a price point, not because of any inherent technical superiority, in fact, the movement is now quite dated.

So, it's of little surprise that Eterna and Valjoux combine to produce the Porsche Design Chronometres, not for any particular technical excellence, but as a practical, cost-cutting alternative.

I don't claim be be all-knowing in the field of Fine Watch manufacture, never said I did. But, I'm pretty comfortable that I at least know a little about the subject...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[yellowbox]

Jim,

I'm into watches too, but not an expert. Are you implying that Valjoux movement is worse than ETA's? I do agree that most high end watches use ETA, except ones that uses their own in house movement (ie JLC), or in certain cases, other great movements (ie Piguet). I find that many sub $5k chrono watches use Valjoux 7750 or ETA 2892. I always thought they are sort of equals.... but i guess both Valjoux and ETA produce different classes of movements.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

No sir, I beg to disagree. The Valjoux 7750 Engine was first produced in 1974 as an alternative to the expensive Auto Winding movements available at the time.

It is an economy Engine designed to be cheaply manufactured to allow Fine and Luxury Watchmakers to produce lines in the mid-priced range and thereby increase their Market breadth. It substitutes many wedges, rather than traditional precision screws, and the packaging of many component groups onto large plates to help it achieve this ease of manufacture. But, keep in mind that the sole purpose of it's creation was to be cheaper to produce. It's a good, though not the best movement available in it's price range - compromises were incorporated into the design.

It is not made by Eterna, but by Valjoux SA. Valjoux offers the 7750 Engine in 3 distinct levels of quality and sophistication - the Elaboré, Top, and Chronomètre. The Porsche Design watch uses the Elabore' movement, the most basic of the 7750 Engines. It has also been versatile enough to have several variants produced from the same basic design - the 7760 (Manual Wind w/Date), the 7751 and 7761 (Manual Wind w/ Moon Phase and Date), 7758 (Manual Wind w/ Moon Phase) and the 7765 (Manual Wind w/o 12-Hour Counter).

Prior to the 1950's, chronometres were not extremely accurate as they beat in the 18,000 BPH (Beats per Hour or every 0.2 seconds) (or VPH in the case of a Quartz Engine) . To improve accuracy, it was known that this BPH needed to be increased. Steadily, through the 1960's, BPH increased until Zenith produced the first Engine to achieve 36,000 BPH in 1969. The Valjoux 7750 has a BPH of only 28,000, repectable, but certainly not leading edge.

Also, the 7750 is the bain of most watch repairers - it is very difficult to repair. Major portions of the movement are mounted on large plates rather than each having it own distinctive mounting. This means that to clean/adjust one part, you're disconnecting several adjacent pieces, which now have to be re-aligned and set along with the selected part. This also makes them very expensive to repair - sometimes upwards of 50-75% of the Purchase Price of the watch - hardly an outstanding feature.

The Kon-Tiki, while a good watch, is far from the finest example of the Watchmakers art. It was a commemorative put out by Eterna in 1974 (27 years after Thor Hyerdahl's famed voyage - he never wore one). Heyerdahl wore an Eterna with the Eterna-matic engine, a rotor-based engine (produced in-house) running on Ball Bearings - 5 to be precise - an Eterna trademark. He wore this watch because Eterna was a major undewriter of his expedition.

Also, Eterna used the 7750 only in it's Kon Tiki. It usually used ETA Engines produced by ETA S.A., which it spunoff in the early 1930's from Eterna S.A. . ETA makes some fine engines which are used by vitually every large Watchmaker in Switzerland.

Eterna S.A. was purchased by Ferdinand Alexander Porsche in the mid-'90s. 'Butzi', Ferdi's Grandson, was in the design studio at Porsche when the 911 was originally penned and is said to have contributed greatly to the basic design. He left Porsche AG and founded Porsche Design in 1973, a completely separate company. Their first product was a chronograph made by Orfina and used the Valjoux 7750 Engine. Later, this movement was switched to the Lemania 5100 Engine as this was deemed more rugged. Their current chronograph reverted back to the 7750 Engine, but only because it allowed them to meet a price point, not because of any inherent technical superiority, in fact, the movement is now quite dated.

So, it's of little surprise that Eterna and Valjoux combine to produce the Porsche Design Chronometres, not for any particular technical excellence, but as a practical, cost-cutting alternative.

I don't claim be be all-knowing in the field of Fine Watch manufacture, never said I did. But, I'm pretty comfortable that I at least know a little about the subject...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Frank Patrick]

I own a Rolex(stainless model) not the "high priced" stuff- and I am very happy with it. Looks great, and is comfortable and durable. However is not as accurate as my $25.00 Timex

[Perfectlap]

by the way, everytime I think about forking over $2-$5K on a WRISTWATCH, I'm reminded of that investment company commerical where the guy on safari is wearing some expensive watch and the narrator says how great it was and how it cost him $30K in lost investment potential....And every time I decide not to buy.. I just get more pleasure watching my Apple stock go up 20% in the last two weeks.

[Dr. Kill]

I guess it's all about where you are at in your life. To many, $4k for a watch may not be a big deal. Granted, not in this price class but still a good example - my Movado purchase last year, although more than 20 times as expensive, was less of a stretch financially for me than the $25 watch I bought back when I was in the Army. Everything is relative.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by yellowbox

Jim,

I'm into watches too, but not an expert. Are you implying that Valjoux movement is worse than ETA's? I do agree that most high end watches use ETA, except ones that uses their own in house movement (ie JLC), or in certain cases, other great movements (ie Piguet). I find that many sub $5k chrono watches use Valjoux 7750 or ETA 2892. I always thought they are sort of equals.... but i guess both Valjoux and ETA produce different classes of movements.

Hi,

Understand that I too am far from expert, but to say that I " have opened your mouth, clearly, without knowing what you are talking about in this particular case", I am compelled to reply.

I wouldn't necessarily say that the Valjoux 7750 is patently inferior to ETA engines in the mid-price range. But, I think that if one looks at the Watches which use these engines, one will find the ETA watches tend to have the reputation of being more rugged, are easier/cheaper to repair, come from better recognized Watchmakers and also command slightly higher prices.

The Valjoux 77XX line of engines are good. But, like a Subaru, hardly the pinnacle of the breed. I guess I was trying to demonstrate that a Porsche Design watch, produced by the same person who owns Eterna S.A. (Butzi Porsche), and using a Valjoux movement (to constrain manufacturing costs), isn't choosing to make a watch of superior quality. They're making a watch for the relative masses. I just think that in the sub-$1000 range, there are better watches out there, and some have agreed with me...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Perfectlap]

what's a good watch in the sub 1000 range? I passed on a Tag Carrera Chrono with leather strap for $1500 recently. Didn't excite me like my Goodyear F1's.

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

It depends on what you want - a Sports Watch, Dress Watch.

Personally, for Dress, I wear a RADO Diastar Date, for Sport I wear a Breightling Aerospace Titanium. These are higher than the sub-$1000 price range, but I also wear a Torgoen T1 Titanium Flight Computer (E6B) - priced under $500. This is also an excellent Watch with an ETA quartz movement and has a guarantee of 3 years - longer than any number of premium watches costing $1k-$3k...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Peter Serbanica]

I bought my Rolex in 1986 in Munich Wempe jewlers near Marienplatz. Staniless and gold for $2100. In 1989 bought women's version for my wife in same store. Going back for oktoberfest this sept. Maybe I will sell minf there.