Another IMS question :-(

[barthol]

Hi Forum,

We have now owned out 2,5 986 boxster ( 1999 model) for one year.
At the moment it is parked in the garage for the winter.

And here comes the question: Do I do something about my IMS / RMS?

The car has done 150.000 km and it really still goes strong. There is always a little drop of oil hanging beneath the gear box, but I never see it on the garage floor.

I just changed the oil and it looked clean with no debris / "silver" in it.

However when I start it cold there is some initial nice coming from the engine.
It actually sounds like the starter not disengaging fast enough. as soon as the car has been started , I can start it again and again without the sound occurring.

I have uploaded i Video clip on you tube where the sound can be heard.
https://youtu.be/TV5YW3Ta_Nk

Any ideas on what this sound is .
How can I tell in good time that the IMS should be changed.
should I just change it for the peace of mind ( which technical solution is the best?)
Any suggestions / ideas are welcome


BR
Barthol

[jdraupp]

Search the forum and you'll find many options. I think you'll come to the same conclusion I did...with a higher mileage car and especially one that has the dual row bearing, you are probably fine.

Rms would need to be replaced if it's leaking. Again, a search could have avoided this topic which is sure to blow up.

[thstone]

With 150,000km (~90K miles), the engine is well past the early IMS failure period. At his point, engine longevity will depend on regular wear/tear and how well the engine was maintained prior to your ownership.

There is no technical evaluation that can be done to help owners decide whether to replace the IMSB or not. It is up to every owner to make that decision for themselves without having any real data to go on. So, if the IMS really worries you or you simply can't afford or stand to have the engine fail for that reason, then have it replaced. But in general there isn't anything in particular to worry about at this point.

There are a lot of high mileage M96 engines out there still running on their original IMS bearings. For example, I had a Boxster that went 146,000 miles when the engine failed due to a lifter; another Boxster went 204,000 miles before a cam chain failed; and a 996 that was still running strong with 148,000 miles when I sold it. All had original IMS bearings.

Only replace the RMS if its leaking a lot. A few drips or two can usually be tolerated until the clutch needs replacement and then do the RMS at that time.

[thom4782]

If you plan to keep your car for a long time, change the IMS when you R&R the clutch. It's really just that simple.

IMS bearings will fail when their seals leak and oil mixes with the grease. Single row bearings will go sooner than double row ones, but they all will fail once the lubricant becomes compromised. Grease + oil is a poor lubricant. Even if the oil washes out the grease, the "leaking" IMS outer seal keeps enough oil from reaching the ball bearings to maintain adequate lubrication for a long time.

[Giller]

Comes down to dollars and cents. What is the cost of doing the IMS vs. the value of the car? Are you putting $3000 into a $5000 car? You know the values in your area - would it make more sense to bank the $3000 and put that towards a newer Boxster if your engine does go? Remember, you will also be able to sell your Box as a roller for a couple thousand, so that's essentially $5000 you could have towards a newer Box.

And again......at best, what, 10% of Box's experience a fail? That means 90% don't. Pretty good odds that NOTHING will happen.

The flip side - if every time you drive it you worry about the IMS, then just do it for piece of mind.

[Xpit77]

I did my 99 tip at 132km.It was very well maintained by the PO. It was intact but was starting to get a bit sloppy. My guy told me he was starting to see more dual rows being done. He said it was owners who like me had some nice 98 / 99s and planned on keeping them hence the investment. There not as available here as they are in the US. There`s lot`s up here but. As a old race car guy I can never understand why someone pays huge dollars for wheels and tires and then pisses and moans to do prevent although expensive, engine work ? Remember ,performance engines run their very best just before they go Kablammo.I know or at least that`s what our driver always said,that`s why he wasn`t watching the op gauge.

[Muzzle of Bees]

I feel that anytime someone disassembles something there is a compromise. Some things are obvious and need to be replaced/repaired. But not everything can be seen. I don't do that much work based on a hunch. Remember, just because you can does not nessesarily you should.

[barthol]

Thanks a lot fro all the feed back,
As I can read from your answers , If I have to do the clutch it is also worth taking a look on the IMS.
As the car now is 150.000 km it is beyond the risk of failing early.

If I exchange it will I then be back at the beginning, having to worry weather the new IMS will fail within a few miles? Or are there solutions out there I can use that will " take the risk " away?

anyone who knows which solution would be the best If I do the exchange .
Actually I would like to get rid of this concern if there is a suitable solution.

BR
Barthol

[thom4782]

The IMS Solution is a close to a permanent fix as one can get for single row cars. According to the LN Engineering website, there is a similar product now for dual row cars.

If you want to spend less, then the Dual Row IMS Retrofit is the way to go. Its been in the market the longest and has the best verifiable performance data. You can expect it to last 75K miles or more.

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by barthol

Thanks a lot fro all the feed back,
As I can read from your answers , If I have to do the clutch it is also worth taking a look on the IMS.
As the car now is 150.000 km it is beyond the risk of failing early.

If I exchange it will I then be back at the beginning, having to worry weather the new IMS will fail within a few miles? Or are there solutions out there I can use that will " take the risk " away?

anyone who knows which solution would be the best If I do the exchange .
Actually I would like to get rid of this concern if there is a suitable solution.

BR
Barthol

If you "exchange" the ims, you don't put a Porsche bearing in it. There are many aftermarket options, one of the best is the ln engineering retrofit bearing.

[jcslocum]

Barthol,

If you are handy, then changing the bearing can be done at home and it's not all that hard to do. That lowers the investment in the car quite a bit as the parts are not all that pricey (here in the USA) and readily available. The clutch and seal are also quite easy to do. Clutch kits can be bought here for about $375 for the kit. The bearings has a few options with prices in a big range. I have just changed mine and have pics in a thread here.

Our Box had a rattle on start up cold that turned out to be the left side (drivers side) chain tensioner. This is an easy change even if you don't do any of the other work on the bearing or the clutch.

[JFP in PA]

While my opinion may differ from that of others, I do RMS/IMS retrofits for a living, and therefore have a somewhat different view of the subject.

If you have 150K on the car, and it has a leaking RMS, it is only a matter of time before the RMS leak is going to foul the clutch and need replacement.; that is a simple fact of life. To have a shop replace the RMS (and the clutch), you will spend 80-85% of the cost to do a solo IMS retrofit. If both cases, the trans, clutch and flywheel have to come out, and then both the RMS and IMS are out in the open. It takes about 5 min. to do the RMS with the factory tooling, and about another hour or so to do the IMS once the engine is in this condition. Not replacing the IMS at this time therefore makes little economic sense, as you would have to pay a second time to do it in the future. Similar economics come into play on some other updates as well, the AOS for instance takes a good shop about 2 hours on an assembled car, but with the trans out becomes a 15 min. project.

As for which IMS to use, realistically there is really only one based upon the totally numbers of successful installations: the LN units. We have installed many of them without any problems, and currently there are nearly 25,000 of them on the street world wide without problems. No other supplier can even remotely come close to making that statement, and many of the "me-too" options are not everything they are made out to be. Don't make your choices on the basis of cost alone, look at the unit's reputations and installed base before coming to a conclusion, and you will be glad you did long term.

[Chuck W.]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

While my opinion may differ from that of others,....

What is your opinion on upgrading to the IMS Solution. Is the extra money worth it?

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by Chuck W.

What is your opinion on upgrading to the IMS Solution. Is the extra money worth it?

The IMS Solution is the way these engines should have come from the factory to begin with…

[Chuck W.]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

While my opinion may differ from that of others,....

What is your opinion on upgrading to the IMS Solution. Is the extra money worth it?

Originally Posted by Gilles

The IMS Solution is the way these engines should have come from the factory to begin with…

I did a search after I posted my question. Backwards, I know.... & know better. Anyway, the Solution is twice the cost and a lifetime fix. You'll break even with the Solution at 100,000 miles of install. The Solution appears to be the best fix yet and once you do it your IMS bearing concerns are over. However, as thstone has found, there are several other ways to blow up an engine besides the IMS bearing.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Chuck W.

What is your opinion on upgrading to the IMS Solution. Is the extra money worth it?

Depends upon where you head is at. I have the Solution in both my personal M96 cars, and have several customers running them as well. Yes, it cost more, but it is the only permanent retrofit, so if you plan on keeping your cars for a bit (one of mine is an 01 986 with less than 12K miles on it now that I bought new and intend to hold onto for a while). And when I did that car, I also gave it a brand new clutch, throw out and pilot bearings, the PTFE RMS, and the latest AOS, even though none of these original parts were problematic. All of the customer Solution installs were handled the same way, as it makes no economic sense to have to go back in there again in a year or two, and you can resell at least the low mileage clutch to someone on a tight budget.

Are there other things that can fail? Sure, but now I know one that is never going to fail, ever. And from my customer's experiences, cars carrying the Solution command a premium at resale time.

[NewArt]

Concerning the other question (the noise), it's hard to tell from the video but it could well be the starter solenoid not retracting immediately. This may tend to get more frequent with time. 2 fairly easy and not too expensive fixes: 1. replace the starter or 2. take the starter apart, clean it and regrease the moving parts. Search for a DIY on this. I opted for the latter solution. It was easy. It was cheap. It was effective.

[barthol]

Hi agin,

As cars are quite expensive here in Denmark 20k GBP for a 99 2.5 boxster i definitely plan to keep it for a long time:-)

As I understand from all the reading now My car properly has a double bearing?
The failure rate on these bearings is supposed to be less than 1% .

With the car having done now 150.000 km i am wondering if I am better of just leaving it in?
Alternatively I would install the Double row solution from LN Engineering.
Is the LN engineering solution also a sealed greased bearing ( with the same problems as the original one, ie. hot oil will break the seal and oil will wash away the grease)
if the grease is washed away won't the oil that did it then be sufficient to lube the bearing?)

I have also come to the conclusion that I have a 5 chain set up. As I understand this means that I just have to lock the engine in TDC with a 8 m pin through the front Pully, which of the cam shafts should I lock before I remove the Tensioners ( and which tensioners should I remove?)

Sorry for all these questions , but looking on the web there is several ideas and solutions on how to do it:-)

I will definitely take a look on the starter during this winter, and I might also do the clutch depending on the service history of the car. I am trying to retrieve it from the porsche dealers who have serviced the car. ( I guess that if it has done 150.000 km on the same clutch it could be ready or replacement)
It does feel quite heavy , but it has no slip ar noises coming from it)

Once again thanks a lot for all your inputs:-)

Barthol

[JFP in PA]

The LN Solution is a solid, pressurized oil fed bearing with no balls or rollers of any type.

You will be locking the right side bank (looking at the flywheel). Full instructions come with the LN kits and I strongly recommend following them to the letter.

[barthol]

Hi JFP

I thought the LN Solution was "just" a new bearing with ceramic balls?

BR
Barthol