which ims bearing upgrade

[boxster]

Ok guys, so ive finally decided to do the bearing upgrade on my base 986 1999 model. My only problem now is deciding which one to go with. Any of you guys have any experience of the different solutions out there. Eternal fix seems to be getting more and more popular,my concern is that its only a single row,and although they offer a spacer for the dual row, I dont know if it would be a good idea to go to a single row,from my present double row. Then there's the DOF system from pedro, which ironically he suggests using a steel bearing as opposed to LN's ceramic version. Then of course I could go with just LN's ceramic upgrade without additional oil supply. My heart says DOF,but I'm sure no expert. Any suggestions greatly appreciated,thanks. Btw,since ill be changing my clutch, should I go with a performance clutch? I dont track the car,i like some hard driving,but some people say that clutch pedal might become harder, so I'm guessing maybe not too good for street driving?

[JFP in PA]

If the car has its original engine, it is a dual row. I would unequivocally recommend the LN dual row bearing without any oil feed system over the other options you mentioned, based upon years of experience install ingthem; they simply work and do not fail.

[boxster]

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471881]If the car has its original engine, it is a dual row. I would unequivocally recommend the LN dual row bearing without any oil feed system over the other options you mentioned, based upon years of experience install ingthem; they simply work and do not fail.[/

As far as I know they still need looking at after certain miles,no?
Are there any of their bearings that have ever failed or not?
How about LN's bearings with dof? Just asking

[JFP in PA]

[QUOTE=boxster;471894]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

If the car has its original engine, it is a dual row. I would unequivocally recommend the LN dual row bearing without any oil feed system over the other options you mentioned, based upon years of experience install ingthem; they simply work and do not fail.[/

As far as I know they still need looking at after certain miles,no?
Are there any of their bearings that have ever failed or not?
How about LN's bearings with dof? Just asking

Last I saw, dual row replacements were at an estimated 75,000 miles.

LN has never had a dual row unit fail to my knowledge, and the handful of single rows that failed were traced to improper installation techniques.

The LN bearing does not need an oil feed, oil mist inside the crankcase is more than enough lubrication, as demonstrated by nearly 20K successful installations. The DOF ads unnecessary complications and has been known to introduce other problems.

[boxster]

[QUOTE=JFP in PA;471895]

Originally Posted by boxster

Last I saw, dual row replacements were at an estimated 75,000 miles.

LN has never had a dual row unit fail to my knowledge, and the handful of single rows that failed were traced to improper installation techniques.

The LN bearing does not need an oil feed, oil mist inside the crankcase is more than enough lubrication, as demonstrated by nearly 20K successful installations. The DOF ads unnecessary complications and has been known to introduce other problems.

Yeah like oil starvation from where the DOF takes its supply eh! I dont use the car much,and that's one of my concerns,as it is claimed that "garage queens" tend to suffer from the problem more. Do you know if LN bearings will also suffer with cars not being used much,or will that problem just be with original bearings? My car has 72k miles,so if they last 75k miles,that will be pretty good for me,��

[JFP in PA]

[QUOTE=boxster;471899]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Yeah like oil starvation from where the DOF takes its supply eh! I dont use the car much,and that's one of my concerns,as it is claimed that "garage queens" tend to suffer from the problem more. Do you know if LN bearings will also suffer with cars not being used much,or will that problem just be with original bearings? My car has 72k miles,so if they last 75k miles,that will be pretty good for me,��

As I mentioned earlier, I am unaware of anyone having any type of issue with the LN dual row under any conditions, high use or garage queens. If you are really concerned, and have the funds for it, LN is going to release a dual row "IMS Solution" kit which replaces the ball bearing IMS with a solid bearing that will outlive the rest of the car.

[Steve Tinker]

If the OP (boxster) has any reservations regarding the LN dual row ceramic upgrade, I fitted mine way back in 2010 - I must have been one of the first in Australia to take the plunge. While not cheap (about $3,500 at the time).
I had past experience with ceramic bearings in large (1.2Mw) electric motors which, with their standard SKF steel ball / roller bearings, were giving temperature overheating problems under continuous heavy loads. We did a lot of investigative experiments with various lubricants and bearing combinations but finally decided on ceramic's. The overheating and wear (brinelling) never occurred again.
As far as I am concerned, you cannot go wrong with the LN ceramics....

[boxster]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

If the OP (boxster) has any reservations regarding the LN dual row ceramic upgrade, I fitted mine way back in 2010 - I must have been one of the first in Australia to take the plunge. While not cheap (about $3,500 at the time).
I had past experience with ceramic bearings in large (1.2Mw) electric motors which, with their standard SKF steel ball / roller bearings, were giving temperature overheating problems under continuous heavy loads. We did a lot of investigative experiments with various lubricants and bearing combinations but finally decided on ceramic's. The overheating and wear (brinelling) never occurred again.
As far as I am concerned, you cannot go wrong with the LN ceramics....

That is awesome news. My concern as I said before is that I dont use the car much, and since statistically those are the type of cars that suffer the most I don't know if it will be the same for th LN bearings. Will direct oil feed help with the ceramic bearings or is it enough to install just the bearings without additional oil feeds. You could also buy just the grooved hex of the eternal fix that goes on the other end of the intermediate shaft so that the bearing gets direct oil. Will that help with LN's type of bearings or it won't make a difference since they don't suffer from heat fatigue as much as steel bearings.

[Steve Tinker]

No - one of the ceramic bearing's biggest attributes is that it requires only a small amount of lubrication (the individual balls are as hard as he knockers of hell) & certainly the oil mist caused by the rotating masses of timing chains, crankshaft, cams etc. is enough. Actually, too much oil can cause "skidding" of the balls in the race.
Don't overwork this - as JFP and Raby say, keep good quality, clean oil in your engine and you wont have to worry about bearing failure. Just make sure the person who installs the new assembly in Malta is experienced in the LN IMS installation procedures.....

[boxster]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

No - one of the ceramic bearing's biggest attributes is that it requires only a small amount of lubrication (the individual balls are as hard as he knockers of hell) & certainly the oil mist caused by the rotating masses of timing chains, crankshaft, cams etc. is enough. Actually, too much oil can cause "skidding" of the balls in the race.
Don't overwork this - as JFP and Raby say, keep good quality, clean oil in your engine and you wont have to worry about bearing failure. Just make sure the person who installs the new assembly in Malta is experienced in the LN IMS installation procedures.....

Hehe,that is THE biggest problem I will have, because I asked many boxster owners around and none of them have had their Ims bearing replaced, some of them don't even know what an ims bearing is, (I think I envy them for that actually), so I cant ask anyone where they had it done. I told my mechanic about it, he never replaced any ims bearings,I showed him the pelican book that I bought and he said that if I get him the removal tool he shouldn't find problems replacing it. I asked a couple other mechanics and still none of them replaced any ims bearings. So I'm hoping that my mechanic will manage to do the job properly. Are there any issues with replacing if, are there any "dangers" of not fitting it correctly?

[mikefocke]

Beware, the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error. Better to use the LN instructions if doing an LN bearing.

BTW, the tools are expensive. Make sure your mechanic understands that in the quote he gives you. There is a ready market for used tool sets too so he can keep them for the next job or sell them on.

[Gelbster]

Whichever bearing is selected as a replacement, it is only as good as the Installer.
Why? - If you study the Installation Instructions for any LN product ,you soon realize how critical the Installer skill level is.It is not that their product is difficult.It is that LN really go to great lengths to ensure the installation is correct and successful.No detail is ignored. The lengthy Instructions are full of imperatives.
Other diy IMSB's may be just as critical but the Installation Instructions are often inadequate.
Probably a good idea to:
1. differentiate between diy and Pro (LN Approved)installed products.
2. find a local qualified installer & discuss.LN have a list.
The Pro Installer route may seem expensive until you understand how easy it is to screw up an IMSB replacement and how expensive the consequences of that mistake(s) are.
Yes, you can be successful with a DIY IMSB ,but it requires a meticulous standard of work that the average shade-tree-mechanic seldom rises to. For example freezing the parts and tools,buying the microencapsulated bolts, loosening the correct crankcase-half bolts, effective counter-stay and valve train locking,surgical cleanliness,correct tools for RMS install ....
Even the "smart guys" screw up :'the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error'
We discussed this wiith Wayne and he did say they would correct this in their website. It is better, as Mike said to just read one set of Instructions and follow them to the letter. Linked for your convenience here:
http://imsretrofit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IMS-Retrofit-Instructions-and-Waranty-Form.pdf

[boxster]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Whichever bearing is selected as a replacement, it is only as good as the Installer.
Why? - If you study the Installation Instructions for any LN product ,you soon realize how critical the Installer skill level is.It is not that their product is difficult.It is that LN really go to great lengths to ensure the installation is correct and successful.No detail is ignored. The lengthy Instructions are full of imperatives.
Other diy IMSB's may be just as critical but the Installation Instructions are often inadequate.
Probably a good idea to:
1. differentiate between diy and Pro (LN Approved)installed products.
2. find a local qualified installer & discuss.LN have a list.
The Pro Installer route may seem expensive until you understand how easy it is to screw up an IMSB replacement and how expensive the consequences of that mistake(s) are.
Yes, you can be successful with a DIY IMSB ,but it requires a meticulous standard of work that the average shade-tree-mechanic seldom rises to. For example freezing the parts and tools,buying the microencapsulated bolts, loosening the correct crankcase-half bolts, effective counter-stay and valve train locking,surgical cleanliness,correct tools for RMS install ....
Even the "smart guys" screw up :'the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error'
We discussed this wiith Wayne and he did say they would correct this in their website. It is better, as Mike said to just read one set of Instructions and follow them to the letter. Linked for your convenience here:
http://imsretrofit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IMS-Retrofit-Instructions-and-Waranty-Form.pdf

Wow, those are really detailed instructions! I must admit I had never seen LN's instructions before,only pelican's.as I said before,thats THE biggest problem o have,the mechanic. Where I live, there are no specialized Porsche mechanics, i would gladly go to one if there was,but to most mechanics here, the ims bearing is alien territory,so i was hoping that my mechanic, who is quite good,but still has no experience with ims bearings,would be able to do the job for me. The last thing i want is for my ims bearing to still be in ok condition,meaning it would have given me many more miles of use, and just because I want peace of mind and go ahead with the retrofit,id have an engine catastrophe just because of incorrect bearing installation. Damn,its times like these i feel jealous of people who have no idea what an ims bearing is!! So, what youre telling me is that because there are so many mistakes a rookie can make during his first ims bearing installation,its not worth doing it at all? Isn't some basic mechanics common sense enough for this job? I really dont know who to turn to in this instance!

[boxster]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Beware, the Pelican book instructions have at least one significant error. Better to use the LN instructions if doing an LN bearing.

BTW, the tools are expensive. Make sure your mechanic understands that in the quote he gives you. There is a ready market for used tool sets too so he can keep them for the next job or sell them on.

I know, I will have to buy the tools in not sure he'd want to buy them off me though! I'll try selling them online then.

[Smallblock454]

X is the model year = 1999

6 = 6 cylinder
5 = engine type
X = 1999
14718 = counting number

Regards
Markus

[boxster]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

X is the model year = 1999

6 = 6 cylinder
5 = engine type
X = 1999
14718 = counting number

Regards
Markus

Oh ok, thats good to know. So I should have the double row bearing then

[RandallNeighbour]

Pedro Bonilla just posted a very good video on youtube concerning the IMS and the bearing options for replacements. Because I'm at work I can't paste the link in for the youtube video (youtube is blocked here) but search for it and you'll certainly find it.

It was a fascinating explanation of how oil finds its way into the hollow intermediate shaft chamber and how it becomes acidic over time and seeps into the bearing and washes away the grease causing premature bearing failure. He said they only see 1.5 out of 10 motors with old oil in the hollow part of the shaft, btw.

His final thought was the only way to battle the IMS bearing having its grease washed out of the sealed bearing would be the direct oil feed solution.

[Gelbster]

The only slight issue I have with Pedro's kit is :
1. he doesn't boldly state specifically how insignificant(in terms of the total oil system) the DOF oil requirement is. Volumetrically the DOF requires very little.

2. the generic bearing supplied in his kit is from Argentina.At least it is not China. A Timken/FAG/SKF from a better source would have been reassuring.But you can supply your own very inexpensively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

[boxster]

What baffles me is that he states that the steel bearings work better with the DOF than the ceramic ones. On the other hand, LN claim that their bearings are specifically designed to work in high temperatures with very little oil required to lube the bearings. There's also eternal fix's system where it pumps oil through the ims shaft. I don't know, I really need to make my mind up about which route to take but I think I'm leaning towards LN's system, without additional oil feeds

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

The only slight issue I have with Pedro's kit is :
1. he doesn't boldly state specifically how insignificant(in terms of the total oil system) the DOF oil requirement is. Volumetrically the DOF requires very little.

2. the generic bearing supplied in his kit is from Argentina.At least it is not China. A Timken/FAG/SKF from a better source would have been reassuring.But you can supply your own very inexpensively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

Wow, did i get it right? Ceramic rollers in bearings won't work, baacuse the rollers are too hard. Well, maybe he shouldn't use that cheap chinese stuff.

Did anybody think about to seal the tube volume directly behind the roller bearing? For example glue in a aluminium peace with the same diameter the inner tube has. If there is no underpressure, no oil will be sucked in.

Or you park your car always at a hill with the nose down. So the oil level is below the bearing.

Regards
Markus