which ims bearing upgrade

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

I'm doubting you can find a glue that can withstand the kind of heat a motor creates and not melt and contaminate the oil.

If you ask me, the IMS designer should have put a pin hole at the other end of the IMS shaft to allow for pressure equalization.

The best way to do it is the same method the LN IMS Solution uses, a freeze plug inserted into the shaft with some Loctite sealant on it. Just make sure it is far enough into the shaft to not interfere with the IMS, but not so far it creates a cavity.

[Gelbster]

JFP,
Great suggestion. I wonder why Pedro has not incorporated it? Low cost and simple but requires some skill to execute ?

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

The only slight issue I have with Pedro's kit is :
1. he doesn't boldly state specifically how insignificant(in terms of the total oil system) the DOF oil requirement is. Volumetrically the DOF requires very little.

2. the generic bearing supplied in his kit is from Argentina.At least it is not China. A Timken/FAG/SKF from a better source would have been reassuring.But you can supply your own very inexpensively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

Wow! What a compliment! Pedro used my findings (and didn't give me credit)! The most sincere form of flattery is imitation, or in this case, taking credit where credit is not due. I'm no where near as long winded as Pedro, but take a (short) peek at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzHwWUgU37k . If someone steals from me, I tend not to trust them..., or do business with them, it's a character thing. I would highly recommend that to anyone. I'd also recommend researching spray (maybe not so good) versus mist (a lot better) oiling on major ball bearing manufacturing sites as I did. Also be very cautious about where the oil is stolen from to oil the bearing, it should be filtered, and not bias the overall engine oil pressure side to side. And as far as the thermodynamics of this rationale goes, I'd challenge anyone, no matter what their reputation or experience to prove the perfect gas laws (or as near as the atmosphere gets) are wrong. In other words, for the less technically inclined, Pedro is completely correct, though not original. He needs to either research more, or cite his sources. If you look at my other videos you can see how I solved this problem while I rebuilt my own engine. Never take my ideas as your own without citing me or I will lay it all out on the table for everyone to see.

[Gelbster]

James.
Did you communicate directly with Pedro? I notice you posted your vid 2 years before Pedro.
I ask because he may have been unaware of your 'prior art'. If you have ever spoken with Pedro he seems the most unlikely plagiarist.
At least he proposes a Solution. Opps, that should be Solution TM?

[911monty]

James I would argue that Pedro may not be completely correct. While the thermal dynamics of heating and cooling are certainly correct I suspect there is a problem with the gas law. During the cooling cycle there are 2 phases in contact with the bearing, a gas phase and an oil phase. Since fluid flow is always to the path of least resistance then the gas phase must preferentially move through the bearing during heating and cooling cycles before the viscous oil. I suspect this eventually pushes out the grease and causes the seals to fail, then the oil simply equalizes through the bearing by gravity. A sealed bearing could very well be fine if there was a vent hole in the IMS shaft. Just my thoughts.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

James.
Did you communicate directly with Pedro? Or are you claiming you posted your video before him?
I ask because he may have been unaware of your 'prior art'.

I am absolutely claiming it is my idea, circa 2013.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by 911monty

James I would argue that Pedro may not be completely correct. While the thermal dynamics of heating and cooling are certainly correct I suspect there is a problem with the gas law. During the cooling cycle there are 2 phases in contact with the bearing, a gas phase and an oil phase. Since fluid flow is always to the path of least resistance then the gas phase must preferentially move through the bearing during heating and cooling cycles before the viscous oil. I suspect this eventually pushes out the grease and causes the seals to fail, then the oil simply equalizes through the bearing by gravity. A sealed bearing could very well be fine if there was a vent hole in the IMS shaft. Just my thoughts.

The seals are never "perfect", they always leak. The Pelican refit kit sent me a non contact bearing that clearly would have allowed gravity to pull oil into the the IMS easily and certainly a worn seal could do the same, so this is a good point. A driving factor even with a good seal on a sealed bearing would be the delta p after running. I vented my IMS shaft on rebuild for precisely the points you make above.

[Gelbster]

It is fun to play with the "just vent it' idea. When replacing and IMSB w/o engine dismantling it is difficult to drill a small hole in a safe area of the IMS?
You could puncture the one remaining inner seal?
The there is the Vertex 'technique' at the other end of the IMS tube that involves a hammer and punch .Perhaps not.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

It is fun to play with the "just vent it' idea. When replacing and IMSB w/o engine dismantling it is difficult to drill a small hole in a safe area of the IMS?
You could puncture the one remaining inner seal? That would prevent pressure accumulating while the engine was running. If the puncture was submerged when the engine stopped ......
The there is the Vertex 'technique' at the other end of the IMS tube that involves a hammer and punch .Perhaps not.

It's quite easy (once the cases are split apart!). I've a few YouTubes on how to do it. The trick is to make sure there is never a differential pressure across the IMS bearing that serves to drive out the grease (gasp!!) in the bearing. I'll be pulling out my IMSB in the not too distant future to inspect the grease in it after doing the procedure (about 20K miles). Yeah, this is a hobby.

[Gelbster]

"once the cases are split apart"
Funny -that is cheating :-).
The trick as I said is to suggest a how-to w/o dismantling the engine. How can it be done as part of a normal IMSB replacement?

[10/10ths]

...I just bought a 2004 Boxster S and immediately shipped her to Jake Raby and Flat 6 Innovatons and had them install the "IMS Solution", which is a plain bearing fed by an oil line.

The service experience was spectacular.

Highly recommended.

Good luck.

[911monty]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

"once the cases are split apart"
Funny -that is cheating :-).
The trick as I said is to suggest a how-to w/o dismantling the engine. How can it be done as part of a normal IMSB replacement?

Probably the only way this could be done would be to cut a channel outside the bearing race in the bearing flange.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Gelbster

"once the cases are split apart"
Funny -that is cheating :-).
The trick as I said is to suggest a how-to w/o dismantling the engine. How can it be done as part of a normal IMSB replacement?

It's all about tools and IMS shafts. I'm not going to do this so I'll fess up. A fairly simple, but expensive tool could be made to drill a couple of holes from the inside of the IMS to the outside of the IMS through the sprocket splitting the twin chain sprockets as I did with mine (see YouTube). Then a (preferably high temp Viton) sealed 8 dollar greased bearing can be installed which will last for well, the life of the car. Likely. The tool is the key, the rest is just a simple bearing replacement. As an aside, a sealed bearing (as opposed to an open bearing) keeps particulate contamination out of the races which is nearly instant death to the bearing. Keeping the grease in the bearing keeps it lubricated and alive. Porsche's error? They did not account for the sealed intermediate shaft delta pressure pulling or pushing oil across the bearing. Solution? Vent the shaft.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by 10/10ths

...I just bought a 2004 Boxster S and immediately shipped her to Jake Raby and Flat 6 Innovatons and had them install the "IMS Solution", which is a plain bearing fed by an oil line.

The service experience was spectacular.

Highly recommended.

Good luck.

From my perspective this is an awesome engineering solution providing the contact forces in the bearing work out. I asked Jake long ago and he assured there is plenty of margin, so this appears to be the best solution going. Perhaps "overkill", but if ever you wanted overkill, this is the place. And another key here is where the oil comes from...

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Wow! What a compliment! Pedro used my findings (and didn't give me credit)! The most sincere form of flattery is imitation, or in this case, taking credit where credit is not due. I'm no where near as long winded as Pedro, but take a (short) peek at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzHwWUgU37k . If someone steals from me, I tend not to trust them..., or do business with them, it's a character thing. I would highly recommend that to anyone. I'd also recommend researching spray (maybe not so good) versus mist (a lot better) oiling on major ball bearing manufacturing sites as I did. Also be very cautious about where the oil is stolen from to oil the bearing, it should be filtered, and not bias the overall engine oil pressure side to side. And as far as the thermodynamics of this rationale goes, I'd challenge anyone, no matter what their reputation or experience to prove the perfect gas laws (or as near as the atmosphere gets) are wrong. In other words, for the less technically inclined, Pedro is completely correct, though not original. He needs to either research more, or cite his sources. If you look at my other videos you can see how I solved this problem while I rebuilt my own engine. Never take my ideas as your own without citing me or I will lay it all out on the table for everyone to see.

I thought the same thing as I listened to it... Except everyone in the shop watching it with me was laughing so hard that I couldn't think straight.

Who knew that 1/3+ 1/3 = a whole?? Must be some new fangled fraction stuff..

[papasmurf]

I get so frustrated when these topics come up. So few want to admit that there are other options and perhaps other equally as viable solutions to the IMS debacle.

[Smallblock454]

I think there are different philosophies and ideas out there.

Honestly i'm not a fan of oil feeded open roller bearing or plain bearing.

If i had to rebuildt my engine i allways would go with a vented tube (by holes) and a high quality sealed roller bearing.

To drill holes from the inside of the tube will be possible but will need a special driller and a very precision drilling to not harm anything outside the tube or the tube. Also there is a danger that drilled parts could get into the engine from the outer side of the tube while drilling. So no option for me.

Alternatively i think it's a good idea to seal the tube volume by a king of machined plug and use a sealed roller bearing. The question is what material to use. A soft aluminium alloy could be a good idea, because of a high thermal coefficient. If pressed in this could be a good air sealer directy behind the roller bearing.

Regards
Markus

[boxster]

I'm certainly no expert and I wouldn't dare side with any particular ims bearing provider since I understand f*** all in bearings. But from my ignorance I think that some more oil being fed to the ceramic bearings wouldnt hurt.
how about using LN's ceramic bearings with the oil feeder from the other end of the shaft from EPS (that requires a punch) to help the bearings with some oil.
As I said, I have no clue how bearings work, I'm just looking for the best way to go with upgrading my bearing without taking the engine out of my car, and I'm after an unbiased opinion.
in the meantime I found another video from pedro, here's the link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCE-KnTDSvo where he compares a brand new ceramic bearing with one that has 45,000 miles on it and there is a big difference in play in the bearings. Any thoughts on that? why has that happened to a dual row bearing which should last at least 75,000 miles? in the other video he claims that his steel bearing in his boxster have already lasted 125,000 miles with the DOF, so obviously he's claiming that that's much better than LN's recommended bearing life.
Again, I know nothing in this field, but I'm just trying to buy whats best out there, since these bearings don't come cheap, and I don't want to be regretting my decision in a couple of years, thanks

[Smallblock454]

@boxster:

I think that's a lot of bla bla from Pedro.

There are a lot of different kinds of bearings made for special applications. Also there are different quality grades available. He also didn't name manufacturer or type, nor the specs. So you can't say that ceramic is bad and metal is good. That's complete bulls…t.

The bearing has to the right one for the application. I did some research on that a while ago. And i'm pretty convinced that there are ceramic roller bearings that won't fail within the given specs. But these are not the china cheap ones.

A sealed bearing is always the better solution. Problem is the under- / overpressure in the tube. Oil feed has in my opinion some disadvantages. Oil has to be clean and you can't prevent to swap uncleaned oil from the oil pan to the bearing. An oil line can break. Also there will be oil in the tube.

So in my opinion the best is to solve the under- / overpressure problem first.

That's not against Jake's or Pedros or any other solutions. They work, but you'll have to do a lot of oil changes and the solution won't work for a life time. So you'll have a lot of follow up costs that i don't like.

Regards
Markus

[boxster]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

@boxster:

I think that's a lot of bla bla from Pedro.

There are a lot of different kinds of bearings made for special applications. Also there are different quality grades available. He also didn't name manufacturer or type, nor the specs. So you can't say that ceramic is bad and metal is good. That's complete bulls…t.

The bearing has to the right one for the application. I did some research on that a while ago. And i'm pretty convinced that there are ceramic roller bearings that won't fail within the given specs. But these are not the china cheap ones.

A sealed bearing is always the better solution. Problem is the under- / overpressure in the tube. Oil feed has in my opinion some disadvantages. Oil has to be clean and you can't prevent to swap uncleaned oil from the oil pan to the bearing. An oil line can break. Also there will be oil in the tube.

So in my opinion the best is to solve the under- / overpressure problem first.

That's not against Jake's or Pedros or any other solutions. They work, but you'll have to do a lot of oil changes and the solution won't work for a life time. So you'll have a lot of follow up costs that i don't like.

Regards
Markus

So, given that I am not planning on removing the engine from the car, LN's bearings without additional oil feeds is the best solution for my 99 spec car?
Also, as i stated before,I dont use the car much, and since statistically those are the type of cars that suffer the most,will LN's bearings have the same problems with cars that dont get used much? They say they life their bearings at 75000 miles or 6 years, since I don't use the car much, if after 6 years the bearings will have 20000 miles on them, will they still have to be changed?