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Old 09-25-2014, 05:16 PM   #1
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Ims options-BEWARE WHAT YOU PUT ON YOUR MOTOR

Just wanted to share some imteresting facts that i found today. Im a Porsche wrench and have been for 20+ years. Today i had a customers boxster that was making noise and had cam timing issues. Car has been to several shops with no solution but thousands spent to try and fix it.

First thing i notice is an IMS fix from Pedros Garage. I gather data to get a baseline and then i disconnected the line and plugged it up, started the engine and the noise is gone and cam timing is back to normal. I have not done more testing but saw enough to know that i will never put one of these on any motor ever!!

Chris

Last edited by amondc; 09-25-2014 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:50 PM   #2
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Chris...
Are you referring to Pedro's techno Fix DOF or Flat6's IMS Solution - perhaps its your wording that's confusing me?
I'm assuming that you removed the oil feed line to the bearing which eliminated the "noise" and altered the cam timing - can you explain a little more regarding the type of noise and what changes occurred to the cam timing (deviation?).
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:15 PM   #3
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Steve, sorry for the confusion, ive changed the wording to prevent further confusion.

My personal belief is that they are taking oil from the wrong part of the engine oiling system. If the cams and lifters dont get oil they will fail.

Yes watching cam deviation and it would go from -5 to +5 rapidly. Bank 2 was not effected at all, only bank 1.
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:45 PM   #4
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amondc, looking at the parts to accomplish your fix.

Does this get it close? On the cylinder head it would seem that you use screw plug m 14 x 1,5 part #90021901830 with sealing ring a 14 x 18 part #90012300730 to close off that end.

What did you use to plug the other end in the IMS housing that Pedro uses to replace (part #99610502401-- other numbers for single / dual and years)?

What size and pitch of the plug or cap, and which used? Thanks
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amondc View Post
My personal belief is that they are taking oil from the wrong part of the engine oiling system. If the cams and lifters dont get oil they will fail.

Yes watching cam deviation and it would go from -5 to +5 rapidly. Bank 2 was not effected at all, only bank 1.
Your observations - if correct - are going to open up a large can of worms.... though cam deviations fluctuating from -5 to +5 deg because of the DOF to the bearing doesn't make sense to me !
Oil starvation to the cams and valve area - if that's what is happening - would certainly cause a noisy top end rattle.
When it first came on the market, there was a lot of discussion regarding the DOF oil supply taken from one of the ports in the cylinder head, some (IIRC Raby being one) advocating that this was the wrong area to take the oil feed from and you were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Quite a number of people on this site has had the DOF fitted, so its going to be interesting to see the response and outcome of your comments.......
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:04 AM   #6
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I've received about 20 emails about this overnight. Its time for some clarifications:

I learned a few things back in 2007, the biggest of those was to patent all my ideas, both good and bad.

To be clear, the product being described here is NOT an "IMS Solution" which is my invention, and the name is trademarked. The IMS Solution does not share anything in common with the product described here.

There's a reason why we developed the Spin On Filter Adaptor and why its used as the feed point for the IMS Solution. This method being used as an oil pressure feed point for IMS related retrofits is something we have taken seriously enough to patent protect.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:26 AM   #7
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I only know of one case where the customer forgot to tell the shop that his last oil change had been over 20,000 miles before.
The DOF was installed and upon startup there was valvetrain and ticking noise as the OP describes.
The shop decided to open the oil pan and here's what they found:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ppbon/oil2_zps0b4fb0fa.jpg

Then they removed the oil filter and this was in there:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ppbon/oil1_zps8234bbcb.jpg

This car's engine was throughly flushed and cleaned with Wurth Engine Flush and Claeaner.
New oil filter and fresh oil at the correct level went in and all noises went away.

It's very easy to blame the DOF (or any other new part) when in fact, the culprit was the negligence of the owner (in the above case).
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:01 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppbon View Post
I only know of one case where the customer forgot to tell the shop that his last oil change had been over 20,000 miles before.
The DOF was installed and upon startup there was valvetrain and ticking noise as the OP describes.
The shop decided to open the oil pan and here's what they found:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ppbon/oil2_zps0b4fb0fa.jpg

Then they removed the oil filter and this was in there:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ppbon/oil1_zps8234bbcb.jpg

This car's engine was throughly flushed and cleaned with Wurth Engine Flush and Claeaner.
New oil filter and fresh oil at the correct level went in and all noises went away.

It's very easy to blame the DOF (or any other new part) when in fact, the culprit was the negligence of the owner (in the above case).
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Yikes! There's an Australian on this forum that recently bought a Boxster that had a history of a lack of oil changes. He may want to do the the same internal clean up.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:47 AM   #9
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This engine had clean oil and regular maintenance. While it may have been a problem in your case it was not in this one.

I would be careful doing engine flushes on these motors, there are too many oil passages etc that can be clogged up. If the engine is that bad it needs to be taken apart cleaned and inspected. There is no "mechanic in a bottle".
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:33 AM   #10
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I can assure you that ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by amondc View Post
This engine had clean oil and regular maintenance. While it may have been a problem in your case it was not in this one.

I would be careful doing engine flushes on these motors, there are too many oil passages etc that can be clogged up. If the engine is that bad it needs to be taken apart cleaned and inspected. There is no "mechanic in a bottle".
... the DOF did not cause those issues.
There could have been a blockage in one of the oil galleys or there could have been an airlock bubble in the system.
The amount of oil drawn by the DOF is only 400 mL/min at max pressure (75 psi).
If idling <20psi) , the DOF will only be using less than 100 ml/min.
If the DOF was the issue, we would have tons of complaints from all of the installed units in every type of M96 and M97 engine.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
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... the DOF did not cause those issues.
There could have been a blockage in one of the oil galleys or there could have been an airlock bubble in the system.
The amount of oil drawn by the DOF is only 400 mL/min at max pressure (75 psi).
If idling <20psi) , the DOF will only be using less than 100 ml/min.
If the DOF was the issue, we would have tons of complaints from all of the installed units in every type of M96 and M97 engine.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:11 AM   #12
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Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
Reconnect the unit and see what happens. If the symptoms recur then you can look to find the underlying condition.
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Old 09-26-2014, 01:27 PM   #13
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Reconnect the unit and see what happens. If the symptoms recur then you can look to find the underlying condition.

I did hook the line back up and the noise comes back after a few mins and the cam timing goes haywire. Everything is now removed waiting on new parts to arrive.
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Old 09-26-2014, 03:12 PM   #14
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Maybe you could take a short video of the cam timing and engine running with and without the unit attached? I'd like to see if what you are seeing is in line with what I have seen.
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Last edited by Jake Raby; 09-26-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 09-26-2014, 03:53 PM   #15
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Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
Is the oil pressure in spec?
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:01 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
Maybe you could take a short video of the cam timing and engine running with and without the unit attached? I'd like to see if what you are seeing is in line with what ice seen.
Would be interesting to see if there is a drop in oil pressure overall, or if it was just local.

Unlike Jake -- I don't donate engines to science -- just my own stupidity on track :-)

Disclosure: I've been an IMS customer since before LN had the IMSR, his 3 row system (IMS replacement?) was in my daily driver and my install picture used to be (may still be) on the LN website.

Between my mechanic buddy and I, we've done at least 25 IMS retrofits since then.

I have never seen an IMS Solution, but based on my experience with the IMSR and and 3 row bearing replacement, I wouldn't think twice about installing one.

Every M96 that I have ever owned or touched, save 1 (and that one is imminent) has an LN IMS replacement or retrofit.

So please accept my bias, but its a happy bias.

Mike
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:19 PM   #17
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I would have been happy to do the video but car is apart and The IMS Solution has been ordered. Was hoping to have it back together today but will have to wait till monday.

Jake:would you like the DOF for testing to see why it doesn't work? I'm sure the customer would be interested in knowing the answer too.

Chris
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Old 09-29-2014, 03:07 PM   #18
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This is jumping to conclusions that are not supported

Quote:
Originally Posted by amondc View Post
Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
I am an engineer, electrical, admittedly, but the approach is the same. I have no business connection with PedrosGarage, TuneRS etc. I do know some of the individuals and therefore know some history of the testing and results, which is why i know this is not normal at all. In fact i wish i had two DOFs rather than the two (otherwise) excellent bearings i do have.

This quoted statement is very true. The OP can only speak to the car he saw. With the facts given, there is little one ca say about the DOF.

let's look at the issue. He is claiming that the DOF draws sufficient oil to lower the oil pressure/flow. He leaves unsaid the implied mechanism of starving the Variocam.

What we do know is that:

1. on many, many cars with DOF there is no problem - so a healthy engine can certainly suffer the small DOF losses (think of it a parallel resistance in the load)
2. Porsche must design with a variety of flow rates in mind, from idle to 7k rpm. Oil pump volume will vary greatly. It cannot be terribly sensitive to a small load change
3. the draw is 100ml< draw < 400ml - vastly below the available oil flow

We also know that many things affect available oil flow: pump condition, oil passage condition (blockages, sludge etc.) debris.

This can be modeled as the fluid dynamics version of an impedance match. If you have a hgih impedance (low flow) source, a moderate load will cause a drop in voltage (pressure, and, by extension, flow) in both the parasitic flow (DOF) and the main flow (heads/variocam). This in fact could have been measured if the mechanic wanted to understand the cause. Maybe it shoudl be.

The cause - to me - is very likely a motor that is already flowing poorly. The why is hard to say, but sludge or blocking debris would be high on my list to investigate.

Oddly, the DOF may have been an early warning system for a much more serious problem - automotive arterial sclerosis.

We don;t know, but speculation should be used productively and this seems to be not only jumping to conclusions, but very likely the wrong one.

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Old 09-29-2014, 07:43 PM   #19
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I would have been happy to do the video but car is apart and The IMS Solution has been ordered. Was hoping to have it back together today but will have to wait till monday.

Jake:would you like the DOF for testing to see why it doesn't work? I'm sure the customer would be interested in knowing the answer too.

Chris
With all due respect to Jake, wouldn't it be more fair to Pedro to return it to him and give him a chance to see if it conforms to his design?
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:36 AM   #20
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With all due respect to Jake, wouldn't it be more fair to Pedro to return it to him and give him a chance to see if it conforms to his design?
I don't need to see it. Already been there and done that.
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