Oil filter contents 40 miles after IMS failure repair

[Jamesp]

Ok - I was going to wait 50 miles but just could not wait. I strapped rare earth magnets around the outside of the plastic oil filter housing and they did catch some ferrous material. There were 2 pieces of metal I would consider "chips" though quite small, and there was also what looked like aluminum dust, and some small pieces of sealant. I'm up in the air if I change the oil, or run another 50 miles then change the oil. The majority of what was caught I would categorize as ferrous dust. Perhaps finer than the filter could catch. The magnets are about 1 cm in diameter.

[Bigsmoothlee]

Wow!

Did you rebuild the engine? Or was the repair done in the car?

[thstone]

I'd change the oil immediately. I'd say that you might need an engine flush.

You really don't want that debris circulating around and creating more damage. Might as well be running sand through the engine.

[Walter White]

That is a really good idea to put magnets on the outside of the filter can. That way they can catch debris before it gets embedded into the filter and out of sight.
I put a magnetic drain p0lug in my car, but to check it you loose a lot of oil. By taking off the filter can, you can check your magnets and filter, and only loose a half quart or so, of oil.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Ok - I was going to wait 50 miles but just could not wait. I strapped rare earth magnets around the outside of the plastic oil filter housing and they did catch some ferrous material. There were 2 pieces of metal I would consider "chips" though quite small, and there was also what looked like aluminum dust, and some small pieces of sealant. I'm up in the air if I change the oil, or run another 50 miles then change the oil. The majority of what was caught I would categorize as ferrous dust. Perhaps finer than the filter could catch. The magnets are about 1 cm in diameter.

Not to be pedantic, but if you had an IMS failure and did not take the engine apart and rebuild it, I'm afraid the odds on this engine surviving are very long against you. That metal is going to continue to circulate with the oil, abrading everything it touches, including the new IMS bearing. Oil flushes , magnets, and filter changes are not going to get it all out.

When an M96/97 suffers an internal failure that spreads metal debris through the engine, it is difficult, even in an engine cleaning tank, to get it all out. The best way to dislodge it is in an ultra sonic cleaning tank.

[Walter White]

James, could you make a recommendation on the magnets. Do you like the size and shape magnet you are using. Where do you get them? Thanks

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not to be pedantic, but if you had an IMS failure and did not take the engine apart and rebuild it, I'm afraid the odds on this engine surviving are very long against you. That metal is going to continue to circulate with the oil, abrading everything it touches, including the new IMS bearing. Oil flushes , magnets, and filter changes are not going to get it all out.

When an M96/97 suffers an internal failure that spreads metal debris through the engine, it is difficult, even in an engine cleaning tank, to get it all out. The best way to dislodge it is in an ultra sonic cleaning tank.

Here is what was done:

Engine Removal, Rebuild, and Re-installaion

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Walter White

James, could you make a recommendation on the magnets. Do you like the size and shape magnet you are using. Where do you get them? Thanks

I get them from a store named EPO or Electronic Parts Outlet in an area south of Houston called Clear Lake. They are likely cheaper on line. I typically buy 1 cm diameter or smaller. They are very strong. They have to be slid and peeled apart, there's no way to just pull them apart. The 1 cm are very strong so I chose them to install on the outside of the oil filter housing with electrical tape.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Here is what was done:

Engine Removal, Rebuild, and Re-installaion

I still don't see any evidence of the cases and cylinder heads being sent out for proper cleaning; where they? If they were not, all the galley passages where probably still full of metal grit............

[Jamesp]

This is what I pulled out with my fingers on tearing the engine down.



I got probably 30% more fines out by weight using magnets and solvents.

I went through many cans of carb cleaner, brake cleaner, chem tool, a pint of acetone, a gallon of lacquer thinner (what the heck, it was just sitting on the shelf), lots of hot soapy water with over the top rinses with more hot water, towel drying, followed with a heat gun until no more water was evident, then plenty of WD-40 (displaces water and cuts oil and stops corrosion). The case halves got special attention with non ionic solvents (hydrocarbons), then an ionic solvent with sufactant (soap and water). Many small scrub bushes wooden picks, and a knuckle or two met their maker in cleaning the engine. Every part got a complete dis-assembly and then a poking and prodding into every nook and cranny looking for shavings, and no, I'm not a proctologist, but my car thinks I am.

Of note: look out for commercial "de-greasers" they can contain lye which eats your hands, and etches your oil pan. Cuts the grease great though.

Still, I expect I will find the odd recalcitrant chip that will refuse to leave with its brethren so I'm not too worried to find one or two in the oil filter.

[JFP in PA]

And did you pump cleaning solvent, then hot soapy water, then hot clear water through every last oil passage in the engine, followed by lots of dry, pressurized air? If you didn't, that is where the grit is coming from.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I still don't see any evidence of the cases and cylinder heads being sent out for proper cleaning; where they? If they were not, all the galley passages where probably still full of metal grit............

The oil filter did its job, there wasn't much metal in it in any event, the car ran for a 1 block after the IMS let loose. Enough to get the previous owner home. Areas in order of highest contamination were:

1) Inside the IMS tube
2) Oil pan
3) Return galleys from the head - it appeared the cam chains were transporting bearing material into the head area and it was returning to the oil pan. And this last sentence is an analysis of early failure that some folks might keep close to the vest, here you get it for free.
4) Oil filter - a smattering of chips on the filter element, maybe 2 dozen.

I did not find any metal debris on the high pressure side of the system and I looked hard and long. I used spray cans (mainly brake cleaner) feeding the little red tubes into the oil passages to chase everything out. followed with my old favorite WD 40

The heads were inspected visually and with rare earth magnets both before and after they went out to be rebuilt. Nothing was found.

On rare earth magnets - pulling the chips off the aluminum with them from about 3 inches away looks like sawdust getting sucked up with a shop vac, and that is through the oil film. It's kind of amazing to watch. I went over the case multiple times during cleaning over the course of several days until nothing was attracted to the magnet.

[Jamesp]

You never know, things may not need to be sent out for cleaning for it to be done properly. Where's the fun in that? The fun lies in finding each and every void in the casting, figuring out what is does and how it fits in, and then figuring out how to clean it out. I've found 2 small chips out of the thousands that were in the engine. I'm not done searching yet, but I think the cleaning part went well enough. Who knows what I'd find if I sent it out and had some high school kid dump it in a tank?

[Walter White]

James, would it be possible to get a good picture of the cage parts from your broken bearing?

[Jamesp]

Kind of looks like a "will it blend" commercial, with the answer, "kinda".

[Walter White]

Thanks so much for that photo.



This brand new bearing started to loose pieces off the cage after about 15 minutes with no oil.

The photo below shows how the piece of cage broke off from what I assume is metal fatigue, not wear. You can see the dark oval area inside the piece that is broken off, where it was wearing. But it did not wear through.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

You never know, things may not need to be sent out for cleaning for it to be done properly. Where's the fun in that? The fun lies in finding each and every void in the casting, figuring out what is does and how it fits in, and then figuring out how to clean it out. I've found 2 small chips out of the thousands that were in the engine. I'm not done searching yet, but I think the cleaning part went well enough. Who knows what I'd find if I sent it out and had some high school kid dump it in a tank?

The "fun" is in knowning it is properly cleaned out, and that I won't be finding stuff in the oil filter after 50 miles...........

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

The "fun" is in knowning it is properly cleaned out, and that I won't be finding stuff in the oil filter after 50 miles...........

And if you ship a head out for rework and it gets broken in shipping, as mine did, wheres the fun in that? Months of haggling with the shipper over insurance. Or you send a case half out and it comes back damaged? Which I didn't. I prefer to keep things in my control. All things considered I'll live with FOD in the oil filter that can fit under a fingernail and the knowledge gained doing it myself.

[Walter White]

Our company had an old VW beater for years as a go-fer car. We put over 350K miles on that motor and hardly ever changed the oil. It was self changing, we only had to add oil. We called it "The Exon Valdez".
But the point is, those VWs had no oil filter, only a screen at the bottom of the sump.
We sold the car, still running strong, passing smog no problem. God only knows how many miles it has on that motor now.
Sometimes I wonder how important oil filters are. Sometimes it seems the only reason I have to change them in my cars is to keep the oil pressure from getting too low.

[Jake Raby]

This is why ultrasonic cleaning of all components is required during the repair process of any engine.

There's no other method that will remove the debris as well as it lodges inside the passageways of the case and becomes caught in the rough casting areas of the case.

During operation, hot oil will wash this debris into the oil where it becomes suspended and then delivered to other components, or the replacement IMS Bearing, and the whole ugly process starts all over again.

Cleanliness is the #1 factor that determines the success of any repair made to these engines.

You guys must have never heard of a filtermag before :-)

Equip that engine with an LN Spin On Filter Adaptor and equip that filter with a filter mag.

This is all outlined here and was written from our direct experience.
Bearing already failing?

I would have changed the oil after 3 minutes of run time, then again after 10 minutes of run time and again after 30 minutes and again after 30 miles. Yes, you will change oil a lot, or you will waste an engine. Don't use synthetic oil for this, use some cheap conventional crap that you don't mind throwing away. It will generally gather more debris than synthetic oil will, anyway.

What hates material laden oil more than anything is the variable valve timing components and lifters. The ferromagnetic dust is the worst thing to have in the oil, because it goes everywhere as it is suspended completely in the oil. I'd rather have a handful of metal chunks in the oil as a pinch of ferromagnetic dust.

I learned all of this the hard way, by trying to resurrect engines in the old days when we first started IMSB development. All it took was one instance where my patch up didn't work to learn the proper corrective action, and exactly what should not be done. Knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do in these scenarios.

Judgment comes from experience, experience often comes from bad judgment.

Pull the sump plate and you'll find more material, clean it a dozen times and dropping a cow magnet into the sump isn't a bad idea, either.

Remember, for ANY MATERIAL TO MAKE IT INTO THE FILTER IT MUST PASS THROUGH THE OIL PUMP FIRST!

So all that debris thats in the filter, yep, it has taken oil pump clearance with it. Don't be surprised if come July and hot ambient temps the oil pressure light doesn't flicker at idle, because just enough pump material has been compromised to open clearance and create a low oil pressure issue. We see this all the time.