Oil filter contents 40 miles after IMS failure repair

[Jamesp]

Ok - I was going to wait 50 miles but just could not wait. I strapped rare earth magnets around the outside of the plastic oil filter housing and they did catch some ferrous material. There were 2 pieces of metal I would consider "chips" though quite small, and there was also what looked like aluminum dust, and some small pieces of sealant. I'm up in the air if I change the oil, or run another 50 miles then change the oil. The majority of what was caught I would categorize as ferrous dust. Perhaps finer than the filter could catch. The magnets are about 1 cm in diameter.

[Bigsmoothlee]

Wow!

Did you rebuild the engine? Or was the repair done in the car?

[thstone]

I'd change the oil immediately. I'd say that you might need an engine flush.

You really don't want that debris circulating around and creating more damage. Might as well be running sand through the engine.

[Walter White]

That is a really good idea to put magnets on the outside of the filter can. That way they can catch debris before it gets embedded into the filter and out of sight.
I put a magnetic drain p0lug in my car, but to check it you loose a lot of oil. By taking off the filter can, you can check your magnets and filter, and only loose a half quart or so, of oil.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Ok - I was going to wait 50 miles but just could not wait. I strapped rare earth magnets around the outside of the plastic oil filter housing and they did catch some ferrous material. There were 2 pieces of metal I would consider "chips" though quite small, and there was also what looked like aluminum dust, and some small pieces of sealant. I'm up in the air if I change the oil, or run another 50 miles then change the oil. The majority of what was caught I would categorize as ferrous dust. Perhaps finer than the filter could catch. The magnets are about 1 cm in diameter.

Not to be pedantic, but if you had an IMS failure and did not take the engine apart and rebuild it, I'm afraid the odds on this engine surviving are very long against you. That metal is going to continue to circulate with the oil, abrading everything it touches, including the new IMS bearing. Oil flushes , magnets, and filter changes are not going to get it all out.

When an M96/97 suffers an internal failure that spreads metal debris through the engine, it is difficult, even in an engine cleaning tank, to get it all out. The best way to dislodge it is in an ultra sonic cleaning tank.

[Walter White]

James, could you make a recommendation on the magnets. Do you like the size and shape magnet you are using. Where do you get them? Thanks

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Walter White

James, could you make a recommendation on the magnets. Do you like the size and shape magnet you are using. Where do you get them? Thanks

I get them from a store named EPO or Electronic Parts Outlet in an area south of Houston called Clear Lake. They are likely cheaper on line. I typically buy 1 cm diameter or smaller. They are very strong. They have to be slid and peeled apart, there's no way to just pull them apart. The 1 cm are very strong so I chose them to install on the outside of the oil filter housing with electrical tape.

[Jamesp]

This is what I pulled out with my fingers on tearing the engine down.



I got probably 30% more fines out by weight using magnets and solvents.

I went through many cans of carb cleaner, brake cleaner, chem tool, a pint of acetone, a gallon of lacquer thinner (what the heck, it was just sitting on the shelf), lots of hot soapy water with over the top rinses with more hot water, towel drying, followed with a heat gun until no more water was evident, then plenty of WD-40 (displaces water and cuts oil and stops corrosion). The case halves got special attention with non ionic solvents (hydrocarbons), then an ionic solvent with sufactant (soap and water). Many small scrub bushes wooden picks, and a knuckle or two met their maker in cleaning the engine. Every part got a complete dis-assembly and then a poking and prodding into every nook and cranny looking for shavings, and no, I'm not a proctologist, but my car thinks I am.

Of note: look out for commercial "de-greasers" they can contain lye which eats your hands, and etches your oil pan. Cuts the grease great though.

Still, I expect I will find the odd recalcitrant chip that will refuse to leave with its brethren so I'm not too worried to find one or two in the oil filter.

[Walter White]

There's no substitute for some brushes, solvent, flashlight, a good eye and lots of elbow grease. Enjoy your ride James.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not to be pedantic, but if you had an IMS failure and did not take the engine apart and rebuild it, I'm afraid the odds on this engine surviving are very long against you. That metal is going to continue to circulate with the oil, abrading everything it touches, including the new IMS bearing. Oil flushes , magnets, and filter changes are not going to get it all out.

When an M96/97 suffers an internal failure that spreads metal debris through the engine, it is difficult, even in an engine cleaning tank, to get it all out. The best way to dislodge it is in an ultra sonic cleaning tank.

Here is what was done:

Engine Removal, Rebuild, and Re-installaion

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Here is what was done:

Engine Removal, Rebuild, and Re-installaion

I still don't see any evidence of the cases and cylinder heads being sent out for proper cleaning; where they? If they were not, all the galley passages where probably still full of metal grit............

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I still don't see any evidence of the cases and cylinder heads being sent out for proper cleaning; where they? If they were not, all the galley passages where probably still full of metal grit............

The oil filter did its job, there wasn't much metal in it in any event, the car ran for a 1 block after the IMS let loose. Enough to get the previous owner home. Areas in order of highest contamination were:

1) Inside the IMS tube
2) Oil pan
3) Return galleys from the head - it appeared the cam chains were transporting bearing material into the head area and it was returning to the oil pan. And this last sentence is an analysis of early failure that some folks might keep close to the vest, here you get it for free.
4) Oil filter - a smattering of chips on the filter element, maybe 2 dozen.

I did not find any metal debris on the high pressure side of the system and I looked hard and long. I used spray cans (mainly brake cleaner) feeding the little red tubes into the oil passages to chase everything out. followed with my old favorite WD 40

The heads were inspected visually and with rare earth magnets both before and after they went out to be rebuilt. Nothing was found.

On rare earth magnets - pulling the chips off the aluminum with them from about 3 inches away looks like sawdust getting sucked up with a shop vac, and that is through the oil film. It's kind of amazing to watch. I went over the case multiple times during cleaning over the course of several days until nothing was attracted to the magnet.

[Jamesp]

You never know, things may not need to be sent out for cleaning for it to be done properly. Where's the fun in that? The fun lies in finding each and every void in the casting, figuring out what is does and how it fits in, and then figuring out how to clean it out. I've found 2 small chips out of the thousands that were in the engine. I'm not done searching yet, but I think the cleaning part went well enough. Who knows what I'd find if I sent it out and had some high school kid dump it in a tank?

[JFP in PA]

And did you pump cleaning solvent, then hot soapy water, then hot clear water through every last oil passage in the engine, followed by lots of dry, pressurized air? If you didn't, that is where the grit is coming from.

[particlewave]

Great work James

I agree: why would you "send it in" or have someone else clean parts when you are clearly capable of doing it yourself? Hopefully, the engine will still live
We are all professionals if we choose to put in the effort.

Again, great work James!

[Jake Raby]

Well, guess what? We are all professionals if we choose to put in the effort

Yep, till things don't work out perfectly and its not all Unicorns and rainbows.

James did a great job, he attempted something that most professionals will shy away from and few that attempt it will have an outcome as good as what his has been so far.

Nothing is ever clean enough, when I shelled out the big bucks for my Ultrasonic I was happy to spend the money, and now we are buying two more. You should see the debris that we pull out of the filters of that unit, and its stuff that would have never been removed any other way. Its not just the Ultrasonic capability, its the solution and the 170-200 degrees of heat that the solution is heated to that makes it all work so well.

[particlewave]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Yep, till things don't work out perfectly and its not all Unicorns and rainbows.

Yeah, then you try again until you get it right.
I know you don't give up that easy?

Edit: didn't see that bit about the oil pump. Will the magnet suffice to catch the rest?

[Jake Raby]

didn't see that bit about the oil pump.

People don't consider how the system works, because most have never studied it enough, or first hand.

Yeah, then you try again until you get it right.

Or until you go broke. No matter how many times something is done, it doesn't make a difference and doesn't mean you are "owed" that it work. I had one person tell me "I have been inside this engine 5 times and can't find the problem". My response was that the engine owes you nothing, you can take it apart 100 times and still have issues if you don't find the smoking gun.

I know you don't give up that easy?

We never quit and we never give up, the only difference is the mistakes that a developer makes are write offs. We are suppose to blow it up and break it, so other people don't have to.

Repairing these engines will make someone either a hero, or a zero. There's no in between and as soon as someone fills the role of a professional by accepting the challenge, they must assume all of the good and all of the bad that comes with that.

You'll not get any sympathy from me if you pt it together and it has problems. I'll welcome you to my world and ask you if you'd like to deal with those issues every day, all day long and have every engine that you touch come to you failed and usually scattered all over the road.

[Jamesp]

It's not the destination, its the journey. There is only one way to know something and that is to do it. If this engine blows, the forum will get the autopsy, ill have learned more, and I'll simply replace it with an engine with a little more umph.

[rp17]

Stay at it James. I like the idea of helping those who try to help themselves. Thats what this forum is about... or should be. Can't help you here but rooting for you.