Pedros Techno DOF IMS fix?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Kirk

"The APPLICATION of this lubrication technology is new to the IMS problem"

That part of your statement is fact, the rest is pure supposition without supporting data............

[thom4782]

Kirk:

If unsealed dual row LN bearings don't fail, then the discussion of oil volume doesn't matter. Splash lubrication is adequate by definition in a zero failure world. And that's the hurdle DOF must overcome given its marketing positioning.

[JAAY]

I just ordered the dof and a new steel dual row bearing. Maybe it won't solve the issue but it sure as heck won't hurt it. It will provide more lubrication and it will cool it. That's enough fact for me to use it.

[ganseg]

"I just installed a DOF system on my 2003 Carrera 4S this last weekend and I have the peace of mind now that I know exactly what the state of lubrication will be for that bearing under all running conditions like hard cornering, hard braking, and acceleration - it will be exactly the same!!!

Kirk Bristol"

Which bearing did you install?

[mikefocke]

What was the history of the engine and the condition of the rest of the engine on the LN IMS bearing Pedro showed? Might they have influenced the condition of the bearing? Why have so many survived so much longer? Beware the sample qty 1 conclusion.

And I'd bet Charles and Jake have said that installing any bearing in a contaminated engine or having some other failure in the engine would compromise any bearing over time, even a better bearing.

I think we have to be really careful to separate in our discussions the single and double row removable bearings.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

That part of your statement is fact, the rest is pure supposition without supporting data............

Is it really "new" if it was applied in 2007?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Is it really "new" if it was applied in 2007?

Not sure I understand your question Jake..........

[Jake Raby]

I quoted the wrong post :-)

This is what it should have been:

Originally Posted by Kirk
"The APPLICATION of this lubrication technology is new to the IMS problem"

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by ganseg

Which bearing did you install?

SKF 6204 RSH JEM single row bearing. 2RSH means it has two seals, but obviously I removed one seal. The "RSH"is SKF's new and improved seal. JEM means it has a C3 tolerance to account for thermal expansion. The OEM bearing had C3 tolerances too since the bearing operates in a hot environment, so I stuck with that. The OEM bearing was from the NSK brand, but I prefer and predominantly use SKF at work.

Kirk Bristol

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Are those machines powered by M96 engines?

The biggest mistake that can be made is treating this engine like any other machine. Thats the opening line in both my WTI Engine Mechanical Class as well as my M96 102 Engine Rebuild School.

Jake, I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I use exactly the same tools to work on a M96 engine as I do an air cooled 2.7L as I do my wife's LS2 in her GTO. There is no vodoo magic to the workings of the Porsche engines. They are indeed machines and are just as subject to the laws of physics and science that make the machines in my factory work. Are you suggesting that what bearing manufacturers, scientists, and researchers have learned about oil lubrication of bearings over decades and decades should not be applied to Porsche engines because they are "special"?

Kirk Bristol

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

SKF 6204 RSH JEM single row bearing. 2RSH means it has two seals, but obviously I removed one seal. The "RSH"is SKF's new and improved seal. JEM means it has a C3 tolerance to account for thermal expansion. The OEM bearing had C3 tolerances too since the bearing operates in a hot environment, so I stuck with that. The OEM bearing was from the NSK brand, but I prefer and predominantly use SKF at work.

Kirk Bristol

Thanks for the answer, Kirk. I will be looking at the same task in my 2002 S. If possible, please come back to this thread with updates on your actual experience in the future.

I have learned a lot in this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed!

[Jake Raby]

Jake, I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I use exactly the same tools to work on a M96 engine as I do an air cooled 2.7L as I do my wife's LS2 in her GTO. There is no vodoo magic to the workings of the Porsche engines. They are indeed machines and are just as subject to the laws of physics and science that make the machines in my factory work.

There's one issue with what I've quoted above... The fact hat you lack the direct, personal M96 engine assembly experience to state this.

Tear down and assemble a complete M96 engine, make it leak free, make it noise free and make it issue free on your very first attempt, then we'll talk.

If this engine was so damn simple and so easy to manipulate I'd not have 986/987/996/997 vehicles at my facility from 27 states today, the majority of which have been shipped to us from other repair facilities across the US and Canada.

My day was good... The first part of a 3 part series in Panorama feature focused on our DFI 9a1 engines was shot today :-)

[Jamesp]

Hi Jake,

That's my intent, and having researched the build every way I can, I'd agree it is a very different beast from say a GM V8 straight 6, Volkswagon, Triumph (self unthreading connecting rod bolts and dual Zenith Stromberg carbs Ugh!), Ford or Chiseler V8, or even the venerable Corvair. Any tips you'd care to PM me would be appreciated.

[Kirk]

I gave a tech session on the IMS bearing this last weekend at the PCA Palooza event in Eureka Springs, AR. I’ll share some photos from the tech session later. Here are a few observations that I thought I’d share for now:

There was a lot of interest in the IMSB issue. Lots of folks talked to me about it outside of the tech session at dinner, the car show, drive events, etc.

Three people I talked to said they didn’t have to worry about an engine failure because they had LNE ceramic bearings installed. When I informed them it was a maintenance item and would need to be replaced every 50,000 miles or every clutch change they were pissed (especially one guy with a tiptronic trans). I was even challenged as to where I got this idea from. I told them it’s right on LNE’s website… A lot of these folks though aren’t looking at the LNE website, they’re going off of what their installer or local mechanic tells them. Then I told them that LNE won’t sell you just the bearing, but you have to pay $650 again for the full kit. You can anticipate the reaction since they “thought” they were done with this issue and done paying for it.

I had parts with me to pass around and to demonstrate certain points during the tech session – all of the bearings, covers, shafts, DOF system, IMS shaft, air cooled IMS shaft, etc. I think this was very helpful for people to see and touch all of the components involved.

People with the late 05-08 6305 large single row bearing were still very interested in doing something to help prolong the life of their bearings. I think this had to do with the newness of their cars and thus high cost invested. So they were very open (which kind of surprised me) to taking proactive measures to ensure they don’t have IMSB issues, despite have the larger bearing.

The reaction to the TuneRS Direct Oil Feed system was extremely positive. Some of the folks at the tech session had seen Pedro’s presentation on the DOF and shared about that. There’s been a lot of debate about the DOF in this thread, but those folks who actually saw one, held it, and saw how it worked “got it” and appreciated the simple solution to lubrication of the IMSB.

Only one person at the tech session had experienced an IMSB failure. It was unexpected, with no warning signs. They had Porsche replace the engine for about $19K and since they were the second owner they are anticipating 25% back from the lawsuit.

None of the single row 6204 IMSB owners who had not had a failure had bothered to write the lawyers of the class action lawsuit to exclude themselves. None of them seemed to know that this was an option.

Overall it was very interesting. I covered the basics – what the IMS is, what kinds of IMS bearings there are, why they fail, etc. Then we discussed prevention options (I did not discuss prediction) – oil changes, removing the seal, replacing the bearing with OEM, Eternal Fix, IMS Retrofit, IMS Solution, and TuneRS DOF. We covered risk vs cost and I broke my recommendations down into either using a “belt” or “belt and suspenders” solutions.

Next I will be giving this presentation to my local PCA chapter, so if you’re near Shreveport, Louisiana let me know and I’ll fill you in on the time/place.

Bringing this back to the DOF discussion though – we can debate the merits of direct oil lubrication up and down, back and forth, but when it comes down to it it’s a pretty darn simple solution to the lubrication problem with the IMSB. When regular Porsche owners see the system and have it explained to them they get it and like it. But I also had other engineers present at the tech session and dinner who liked the DOF system solution as well. The appeal of the DOF system is pretty strong.

Kirk Bristol

[mikefocke]

But LN isn't saying all LN bearings should be replaced at 40-50k like you said, just the single row ones. They were cautious with their claims in the beginning and waited until time and miles and reports gave credence to any thoughts of longer life.

What evidence is there in similar mileage cars of the effect of the DOF? How many 40-50k bearings have been pulled after being used in real world cars for several years with a DOF and what are the reported results? Oh, I forgot, the DOF folk won't even reveal the extent of their testing. And there hasn't been a single person yet posting "I've had the DOF installed with XYZ bearing for 3 years and 30k miles and this is my experience". How do we know it helps or hurts until that level of experience is exposed? I think some people's enthusiasm for the next new thing has outrun the evidence.

How many new medicines have been introduced with much hoopla only to have us learn a few years later they aren't as good or they have really bad side effects. My doctor believes in using ones that have a long history because the benefits and risks are better understood.

[southernstar]

Thanks Kirk for sharing that with us - especially in the face of suggestions by some in this thread that anyone prepared to support DOF technology is beating a dead horse. In fairness, I suppose that one of the other reasons that purchasers of the LN Engineering ceramic bearings were not aware that they are considered maintenance items (replace every 50,000 miles or 3 years) is that in the past, LNE did not say that; indeed, as I recall it has only been in the last year or so that they have specified this on their site. Of course this begs a question: while we have to rely upon their own figures with respect to reported failures of retrofit bearings, one wonders why the change if they were confident in the reliability of these splash-lubricated ceramic bearings.

I gather from your post that you have an engineering background - do you, or any of the other engineers that were present, have any concerns about aeration of the oil with DOF? Perhaps you can also chime on in the criticism that the oil in the DOF is unfiltered. That criticism seems to suggest that the oil is in a closed loop and will never pass through the filter. Although the oil does not exit directly from the filter, does it not pass through the filter as it cycles through the engine, just like the rest of the engine oil that is used to lubricate other components? Just interested in the bona fides of some of the criticisms that have been levelled at DOF.

Brad

PS And yes Mike, we all know that DOF is a new product and that, by definition, no customer will be able to say that they have had the product installed in their car for three years and 30,000 miles. However, when LN Engineering introduced their retrofit bearings, that was also the case. Many people purchased them based upon what seemed like sound engineering principles - that ceramic bearings are stronger than steel and that by removing one of the seals, one will get better lubrication than rancid grease that has been contaminated with oil. Is the lack of real-world experience a relevant consideration? Of course. But especially for owners of large single bearing engines (that need tear-downs for a bearing upgrade), or even early single bearing engines (where the LN IMS bearing needs to be replaced every 3 years or less), this technology may be worth serious consideration.

Brad

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

But LN isn't saying all LN bearings should be replaced at 40-50k like you said, just the single row ones.

That's not what's on their website, imsretrofit.com

Typically replacement of the IMS bearing takes 10-14 hours (with exception of some Tiptronic 911 models) and is usually serviced at the same time the clutch is being replaced, or every 50,000 miles (for 4 years, like a timing belt on many modern engines).

In the context of this statement they are talking about both double and single row bearings.

Kirk

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by southernstar

I gather from your post that you have an engineering background - do you, or any of the other engineers that were present, have any concerns about aeration of the oil with DOF? Perhaps you can also chime on in the criticism that the oil in the DOF is unfiltered. That criticism seems to suggest that the oil is in a closed loop and will never pass through the filter. Although the oil does not exit directly from the filter, does it not pass through the filter as it cycles through the engine, just like the rest of the engine oil that is used to lubricate other components? Just interested in the bona fides of some of the criticisms that have been levelled at DOF.

Yes, I have an MS from Georgia Tech 1994. MBA from California State University 2011. I am also a certified Project Management Professional (PMP). I am not a bearing engineer and I have never played one on TV.

No, I do not see how aeration of the oil would be a problem. The oil flow is at system pressures (~30 - 60 psi) out of a very small hole. These are more like garden hose pressures rather than what you'd see from a pressure washer. The cavity where the bearing is held and the oil is sprayed is small with little chance for air entry. The oil will squirt in, the bearing will sling it around, and any excess oil will drain out the slit between the IMS shaft and cover. This isn't some crazy condition where we are just willy nilly spraying profuse amounts of oil around the engine sump. It's also not the "pressure washing" of the bearing that Charles Navarro described. It's a small amount of oil being sprayed into a small space. You know many Porsche engines have oil squirters that spray oil on the back of the pistons for cooling. I've never heard that aeration is specifically an issue with that either.

Honestly TuneRS already weighed in on where their oil comes from and even provided a diagram (it may be in the Pelican Parts discussion). The oil is filtered and cooled before it goes to the DOF.

On the other hand, any oil that the IMS Retrofit would be lubricated with through splash or oil bath lubrication would be oil from the sump and that oil has not been directly, immediately filtered. It is possible that there may be some contaminants in the sump, but generally contaminants will get pulled into and captured in the oil filter. We have to remember that as the engine is running the oil pumps are pumping and circulating oil through the filter over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... I think you get the point. To say that the oil going to the DOF is unfiltered is just silliness IMHO.

Kirk

[Jamesp]

I've been following the IMS discussions and mostly keeping quiet and taking data as I'm the new guy here, and to paraphrase one individual, "you can learn an awful lot just by listening". I think that premature AOS failure due to DOF oil aeration may be over stated. Think of the state of oil at the rod bearings after it leaves rod bearing / crank journal interface. The reservation I have with DOF may be with my understanding of the system. After spending a few days perusing bearing manufacturing sites low speed bearings can be in an oil bath only partially submerging the lowest ball, or can have a DOF like system. High speed bearings use an oil mist system for longest life. Does the DOF squirt a stream of filtered oil or mist oil? I don't know, but I assume a stream. A stream of oil on the internal workings of the bearings would put an additional side load, a point load, on the moving internal bearing components that quite frankly, I've not seen quantified. Splash oil appears to be a non starter for 6204 steel bearings, but may be useful for the 6204 ceramic or larger steel bearings. Replacing the IMSB with a plain bearing is all about the plain bearing design. Is there enough real estate in the area around the IMS to float a plain bearing with the available oil pressure? Apparently so. If the sealed bearing could remain sealed retaining its grease, it would last the life of the other engine components (IMHO), or at least 90,000 mi in top gear.

[Jake Raby]

Is there enough real estate in the area around the IMS to float a plain bearing with the available oil pressure?

Yes, the opposite end of the IMS assembly (the end that NEVER has issues) is supported by a plain bearing that operates with less oil pressure than the IMS Solution sees.

The difference between filtered oil and just filtered oil requires first hand experience with the internal manipulation of these engines over and over and over again to understand. Thats the thing that most experts don't have.