GEBA pump with metal impeller

[Heiko]

Sorry wasn't comparing cars just making the point that I bought something most people at the time told me to stay away from and that I was still happy with it!
JAYKAY - you are absolutely correct... we're all on the same team (I hope) because in the end knowing what's out there for our cars is what we all want to know... So if I'm the so called guinea pig than I hope I grow fur and eat some phone cords
Cheers

[Homeboy981]

Originally Posted by Heiko

Thanks My intention of this whole thread was to show a new product, not to start this huge debate. Personally I don't really care what works or hasn't, I'm trying a new item; and if it turns out to be a big flop then I'll report back with it as being junk.
H

@Heiko, that takes guts! Good luck on that new GEBA bearing on the WP, they have undoubtedly tested it BEFORE it came to market….hope it holds up better than my recent 'bearing experience'. But hey, thanks to that incident, I NOW KNOW of another, longer-life IMS Bearing AND IT COSTS LESS. PM for details. No special oil lines, just a really good FULLY CERAMIC industrial-tested bearing from a reputable dealer.

"And that's Just the facts"

[sam c.]

Originally Posted by Homeboy981

@Heiko, that takes guts! Good luck on that new GEBA bearing on the WP, they have undoubtedly tested it BEFORE it came to market….hope it holds up better than my recent 'bearing experience'. But hey, thanks to that incident, I NOW KNOW of another, longer-life IMS Bearing AND IT COSTS LESS. PM for details. No special oil lines, just a really good FULLY CERAMIC industrial-tested bearing from a reputable dealer.

"And that's Just the facts"

Still going on about that bearing... jeez, change the record dude!

I'm just kidding of course. Sorry for your experience - it totally sucked.

[Homeboy981]

Originally Posted by sam c.

Still going on about that bearing... jeez, change the record dude!

I'm just kidding of course. Sorry for your experience - it totally sucked.

Samc,

Go with the flow…we were eventually going to get around to it.

is this what you meant:

"Delivers 35 gallons per hour free flow rate at 4 to 7 psi"

Now, if you will excuse me I have an IMS bearing to go remove.

[Kenny Boxster]

The problem earlier with metal impeller water pumps was quality control and shoddy manufacturing. From my understanding, DeutscheParts on ebay was selling the water pumps. Mind you, these were no-name generic water pumps made in China that had documented problems of them breaking only after 3,000 miles!

Heiko is going with Geba, a name brand and renowned parts manufacturer, which has to pass TUV standards. I would not paint all the metal impeller pumps with the same brush. One is made by an auto parts company with years of experience, one is made by who knows who? I would feel confident enough with a Geba pump that I would be fine with one inside my engine. The potential of metal to metal contact can raise concern, but with stricter manufacturing tolerances, and higher quality materials, I think the issue of the pump destroying components should not manifest itself during it's service life.

[mikefocke]

The water pump impeller rides on a bearing pulled by uneven forces.

All rotating parts wear.

All failures occur somewhere on a bell curve which means yours could be the first or last.

Metal to metal, the stronger one wins.

Some things made in Germany are well made. Today my wife is really POed at the expensive German iron that just failed after less than 2 years.

When it fails, it will usually fail just out of warranty. Murphy will get you.

Experience quantity one mean little in predicting performance in quantity. (Hear that before Jake?)

What is a pumps service life? Why should you need to even replace the original?

Good luck in whatever each of you choose to do.

[mikefocke]

Jake has been saying beware of the metal impellers for years. So have others whose experiences with the insides of M96 engines is measured in multi hundreds. So who are we to believe, the experienced or the theorizers?

As for the mousetrapness of his "The Solution", recall that the phrase "better mousetrap" may just apply. We probably won't be able to know for another 10 years for sure and even then no one will keep statistics. Only forums that support ancient antique-license cars will come to a consensus.

Maybe all we can tell is it makes sense. More stability, larger bearing surface, used in other Porsche vehicles, lubed with just-filtered oil.

There are those who said the IMS wasn't a big problem, the law suite Porsche is settling says they finally agreed with Jake that, for some years, it really was a BFD.

I've know this bearing and its lubrication system was in development for several years and knew when it was first installed on high HP engines developed in his shop. Several others have tried to productize the same sort of idea (pressure oiled) some with flaws in their design, some without success and some with just a simple failure to pursue the idea once they realized the costs in development and the challenges of support. He expanded the idea of how to lube for longer life with the insight that it was a better bearing that also was needed. Good for him and for all those who try to come up with solutions for us.

How many people do you know are dissatisfied with an engine he built for them? How many product developers come right out and tell you the product isn't for everyone and here are those it isn't right for? Maybe the guy just really has a good reputation.

I've gone through the patent process, it is long, expensive and arduous. Try 2 years and a couple of hundred thousand lawyer dollars and that was with me basically answering all the patent examiners letters and doing all the engineering documentation. (I won.)

And as soon as he does put the details out in public, others will try to sell a product they claim is similar without incurring those expenses/delays. If he comes across as frustrated sometimes, he is entitled.

[sam c.]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

I've gone through the patent process, it is long, expensive and arduous.

If he comes across as frustrated sometimes, he is entitled.

Congrats on having the tenacity and determination to successfully navigate through the patent process. As a guy who's been there myself, that alone earns you my respect.

However, being relatively new to Porsches and certainly new to this forum, with its long running debates, social hierarchies, and thinly veiled politics, who does and who does not deserve the right to entitlements is certainly subjective. I certainly appreciate accomplishments, experience, knowledge, and intelligence but I also appreciate patience, long suffering, and humility. I'm just saying..

[sam c.]

Hey, just out of curiosity, does anyone know the flow rates that the stock water pump puts out? I understand its going to be dependent on RPM but I was hoping someone knew an approximate range.

[Mark_T]

Originally Posted by sam c.

However, being relatively new to Porsches and certainly new to this forum, with its long running debates, social hierarchies, and thinly veiled politics, who does and who does not deserve the right to entitlements is certainly subjective. I certainly appreciate accomplishments, experience, knowledge, and intelligence but I also appreciate patience, long suffering, and humility. I'm just saying..

Well said Sam.

[mikefocke]

And I'm saying you can discount what he says because of the way he says it or discount the way he says it and glean the nuggets his experience and straight shooting reputation provides.

The keyboard warrior has all the time in the world to debate, theorize and claim wisdom. The guy who is working on ten cars at a time and developing training materials for the M96 internals and testing new ideas and developing new products...he doesn't. And so maybe he doesn't say things the way you'd like, he just says his experience says some posting is wrong. I can live with that.

So I cut him a lot of slack in the manner he posts because if he doesn't post, we don't gain from his experience.

(Lets you think me a fanboy, you should go back to the original introduction of the LN bearings and the sharp questions I posed to Charles and Jake and doubts I expressed over the testing sufficiency of the bearings before they were made available to the public. Those were questions I raised on the forums in threads containing his announcements. I don't care who has the right answer so much as want the information in sufficient rigor that I can know.)

[Jake Raby]

Here is my last note while on the way out the door for the season...

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Teddy Roosevelt from the "Man in the Arena" speech
April 23, 1910 at the Sorbonne, Paris

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Here is my last note while on the way out the door for the season...

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Teddy Roosevelt from the "Man in the Arena" speech
April 23, 1910 at the Sorbonne, Paris

Nice, If you don't mind I am going to use this in my Monday afternoon meeting at work..

[thstone]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

If he comes across as frustrated sometimes, he is entitled.

We all have our frustrations. I respectfully submit that is no justification for harsh words.

At least that argument never worked with my mom as she was whipping my butt when I was feeling "entitled".

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by ghostrider300

The company that supplied Heiko his water pump are professional manufacturers in Germany of water pumps, as well as OEM suppliers to many marques. If one inspects or replaces the pump on their own mileage schedule, grenading is moot! Jake is questioning their design, research, product development and sales while at the same time marketing what equates to some mechanical version of "mousetrap" spray oiling system for a bearing, you kiddin me?. Then he says he patented it but everyone will be making versions of that product with off the shelf technology, were you planning on going garage to garage with a lawyer?

PS If that makes you or Bruce want to swing at my mom I guess I'll accept that for my snarkyness which isn't necessary.

Ghostrider,
You have me confused with someone else. I removed the ball bearing IMSB from the engine with my patent pending design. We didn't just lubricate the stock bearing.

As far as metal impellers, losing "blocks" with water pumps is nothing new when bearings go bad. It doesn't just happen to alloy blocks, but can also happen to old cast iron block engines as well. Cast iron is one hell of a lot tougher to "machine" than the alloy block. One day someone here will have the issue and post about it, which will validate what I have posted and what we have seen with our own eyes. Then people will actually listen, like what has happened now that the IMSB class action suit has progressed.

That said, buy what you want, listen to who you want. In my position it doesn't take very long to realize that the manufacturers of automotive parts are generally the people in the room who know the least about how their product works in practical application. This is why the products that we develop with LN Engineering for these engines actually work; because it is all application specific and is conceived through direct experience, not projections, theories and computer aided design. All those things go into the equation, but its all developed in the real world.

Outta here and all forums for a good while. I have a book to finish and it won't get done by entering challenges with keyboard warriors and arguing with people.

Have a great spring and summer.

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Outta here and all forums for a good while. I have a book to finish and it won't get done by entering challenges with keyboard warriors and arguing with people.

Have a great spring and summer.

Writing a book?? Reserve a copy for me.

Looking forward to your return.
Enjoy the summer.