GEBA pump with metal impeller

[Heiko]

Well the new GEBA pumps from Germany are being shipped with metal impellers
I think thats cool because the VW Jetta/Golf ones constantly break and all the ones that get replaced with the revised metal impellers rarely have any issues. Anyhow the pump comes with the gasket and looks good
Thought I'd share the pics (Pump rev 01/13)

This one is going into my S as soon as I wake it up from its winter nap

[jaykay]

Nice, I have to do the same thing! I have not seen this pump before. How are the bearings in it? Are they more substantial than the OEM ones?? Maybe we can go halves on a pressure bleeder

[Jake Raby]

Thats an excellent "milling machine" to destroy your crankcase when the bearing fails. People think they are "out smarting" the water pump issues by using these metal impeller equipped pumps, then they learn the hardest lesson possible.

[san rensho]

Why in the world would you want a metal impeller? WPs fail because the center bearing fails. When it fails, the impellers hit the engine case. If the impellers are metal, they will chew through the case and ruin the motor. If the impellers are plastic, they break off and save the case. What proof do you have that metal impellers make a better WP?

[Heiko]

If that bearing goes and that shaft angles enough to make the impeller touch the case, then the belt and the pump will be making noise long before. Anyhow I dont mean to get into any arguments over this but the GEBA pumps are not 'cheap knockoffs' and I put a lot of trust into their products; GEBA pumps are used in a lot of high end applications and I'm sure their product is good.

Not starting a debate here, I just wanted to show the new pump.
Over and out...

[Spinnaker]

Not trying to add to the debate, but the plastic impellers break even when the bearings are still fine and there is no shaft wobble. The risks of each type are well documented, so we make our choices and take those risks that come with what ever pump you choose. It's your car to do whatever you want to do to it.
There are plenty of used engines around to replace whatever type of failure you may experience, whether it is a breached crankcase or a cracked head.
The joys of Boxster ownership live on.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by Spinnaker

Not trying to add to the debate, but the plastic impellers break even when the bearings are still fine and there is no shaft wobble. The risks of each type are well documented, so we make our choices and take those risks that come with what ever pump you choose. It's your car to do whatever you want to do to it.
There are plenty of used engines around to replace whatever type of failure you may experience, whether it is a breached crankcase or a cracked head.
The joys of Boxster ownership live on.

This...

I've been stranded twice by plastic WP impellers that split in half. I've had only one metal pump fail, which amounted to a minor leak long before catastrophic failure was likely. I'm sure others have legitimate reasons for their feelings on the subject, but my experience is that the "metal mill" scenario is one that I've only heard substantiated second hand. Lots of grim warnings about the risks, but no pics or rist hand accounts. Is there any one out there that has pics of their damaged block from a metal impeller??

[Heiko]

shadrach74 - there seem to be pro's and con's to each scenario when you look at failures and how they happen etc. Since GEBA just started running this pump since late last year, I thought i'd send them a message to see what they had to say about this 'new' metal impeller setup and how it fairs against the dreaded 'engine case destroyer scenario'. (I like their products because they make awesome pumps for VW and BMW) anyhow... I got a very quick and kind reply from the production manager in Germany.... (which I will translate to short here)
"We started production of the new pump 15007 at the end of 2012 and decided to utilize a metal Impeller because of the known Problems with the plastic ones. We also decided to utilize for these pumps the original bearing which Porsche is using for their production series which features an added Roller Bearing design which will reduce radial and axial play to a minimum." Also the distance between the pulley and Pump housing are extremely small, so if bearing failure would occur the Impeller could not move significantly into any direction"
Looking at this new pump, I like it; its not cheap, but equally priced to the LASO pump which seem to have its own set of issues at times.
Anyhow, I like trying new things especially when its new and revised - technically it should be better

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

This...

I've been stranded twice by plastic WP impellers that split in half. I've had only one metal pump fail, which amounted to a minor leak long before catastrophic failure was likely. I'm sure others have legitimate reasons for their feelings on the subject, but my experience is that the "metal mill" scenario is one that I've only heard substantiated second hand. Lots of grim warnings about the risks, but no pics or rist hand accounts. Is there any one out there that has pics of their damaged block from a metal impeller??

We have had three cars in the shop that had the engine cases ruined by metal impellers on aftermarket pumps that had to have replacement engines. In addition, we have had others where the engine cases were torn up, but still intact enough to be used, although they needed extensive work to clean the fine metal dust out of the cooling systems before they could go into service. And in each case, they suffered overheating issues because the clearance between the rear of the impeller and the engine cases was now large enough to reduce the pump's ability to move coolant.

Listen to Jake; he is spot on with this problem.............

[JFP in PA]

The rear of the water pump housing in the front of the engine case. The impeller blade has to sit very close to it (perhaps a couple thousands of an inch) in order for the pump to actually move the coolant. Eventually, all water pump bearings wear, and the shaft starts to wobble a bit, when that happens, the gap between the water pump impeller and the cases starts to get very tight and eventually the impeller makes contact (which is also why when a composite impeller wears, it wears at the outer edge). When it does this, there is often no noise as the sound is dampened by both being enclosed and submerged in coolant. So you have no warning anything bad is happening until you suddenly find an intermix problem.

Porsche is not the only one using composite impeller pumps because of the proximity to the alloy engine housing. A metal impeller is harder than the housing, so the housing will lose the argument. A composite impeller is softer than the housing, so the opposite happens.

Automotive engine design is always a matter of trade-offs. With a metal impeller, the risks are simply higher.

[sam c.]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Automotive engine design is always a matter of trade-offs.

I def agree that all automotive engineering and manufacturing is really no more than a serious of compromises. I used to think there were two ways to approach those compromises. 1) By making intelligent, data driven decisions, or 2) The Chrysler way. I'm becoming more and more convinced the interns over at Porsche that designed the M96 decided to go with#2.

With that said, thank you for making a very informative case supporting your opinion of the superiority of plastic impellers. And thank you for the professionalism of your reply. Maybe some of the other pro plastic impeller guys can follow your example.

[thstone]

"Civility costs nothing, and buys everything."
- Mary Wortley Montagu

[Mark_T]

"All we are is dust in the wind, dude."
-Ted "Theodore" Logan

[sam c.]

"Hey, just out of curiosity, does anyone know the flow rates that the stock water pump puts out?"
-SamC, 986forum,com

[stateofidleness]

Originally Posted by sam c.

"Hey, just out of curiosity, does anyone know the flow rates that the stock water pump puts out?"
-SamC, 986forum,com

lmao! spilled some rockstar on myself from that

[sam c.]

Originally Posted by sam c.

"Hey, just out of curiosity, does anyone know the flow rates that the stock water pump puts out?"
-SamC, 986forum,com

Nice, if you don't mind I might just use this in my Monday afternoon meeting. I mean, assuming the conversation takes a weird turn and we end up discussing water pumps.

[Idaho Red Rocket 3]

I'll say it again. Heiko has courage to try a new product just recently released. Who knows at this point weather or not this recent design is the solution to the weakness of the current water pumps. Just as many took a chance on the LNE IMS bearing when it was a new design. Remember some of them have failed.

[Heiko]

Thanks and if it fails and it kills the motor, I'll rebuild it... not like there isn't thousands of them out there! My intention of this whole thread was to show a new product, not to start this huge debate. Personally I don't really care what works or hasn't, I'm trying a new item; and if it turns out to be a big flop then I'll report back with it as being junk. I guess I should have just bought a 911 as everyone said don't buy a Boxster - LMAO - and I still like my Boxster!
Anyhow hope everyone had a good weekend.
H

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by Heiko

Thanks and if it fails and it kills the motor, I'll rebuild it... not like there isn't thousands of them out there! My intention of this whole thread was to show a new product, not to start this huge debate. Personally I don't really care what works or hasn't, I'm trying a new item; and if it turns out to be a big flop then I'll report back with it as being junk. I guess I should have just bought a 911 as everyone said don't buy a Boxster - LMAO - and I still like my Boxster!
Anyhow hope everyone had a good weekend.
H

I think we all have learned a little more as a result of this thread. Thanks for posting and sharing information and thoughts; this what a forum is....

We should all remember that really we are all on the same team and be respectful of each other

[stateofidleness]

Originally Posted by Heiko

I guess I should have just bought a 911 as everyone said don't buy a Boxster - LMAO -

Same engine? Odd comment. It's a forum, expect to get differing opinions on things. If you got the money to experiment with new products that could kill your engine, then more power to you! I hate being a guinea pig