IMS Install help! IMS bearing not centered

[truegearhead]

So far the IMS/clutch job has gone smoothly, and the bearing seems to be in great shape but I have no idea how I'm going to remove the thing! Its not centered in the hole so the the puller is not going to work. Any ideas, I'm not sure how the cover worked since it would have to be centered for it to be bolted up. Any ideas?

[truegearhead]

****************! I ddin't take the cam tensioners out. Hopefully I didn't bend anything. Does anyone know what size those wrench those tensioners need?

[Jager]

You needed to remove the chain tensioners... 32mm.

[truegearhead]

well its closer but still not dead centered. The puller might center the bearing but I'm not sure if thats a good idea. Its very close but the inside of the puller is still contacting a small part of the bearing. What do guys think I should do? Go ahead and try and pull it?

[Jager]

Did you put your motor at TDC and lock the crank and then the cams on one side?

[truegearhead]

No, the pelican article I'm using didn't mention it. I do have the lock down bolts around the IMS bearing in place now and have marked the cam shafts. Unfortunately the engine is not at TDC and I'm hesitant to turn it over with out the IMS support plate in place.

[Jager]

Did you remove the chain tensioners?

[JFP in PA]

There is no way to sugar coat this, you are probably in trouble. The engine should have been rotated to TDC and locked in place with the pin pictured above. You should have then pulled the cam plugs on one head and locked the cam with the fixture pictured above. Then, and only then, you should have pulled three tensioners, which would have allowed the shaft to remain centered in the case opening when the rear IMS cover was removed. At this point, the IMS bearing would come right out, and the new one would go back in without issues.

I do not like using the set screws on the IMS rear gear because it is a press fit to the shaft and can easily be moved by pushing on it with the screws; and if it moves, there is no way to move it back to where it needs to be. At that point, the engine has to come out and come apart. Using only two setscrews could easily cause this problem.

At this juncture, I really do not know what advice to offer you, other than to suggest you probably need to flatbed the car to a shop that is better equipped to handle something like this.

For future “searchers” coming across this post, here is the way you are supposed to do this, written by the two guys that originally figured how to successfully do this. Just remember, shortcuts are the quickest pathways to a disaster:

LN Engineering Retrofit Kit Instructions - Rev 7 Jul 10.
1. PROFESSIONAL INSTALLATION RECOMMENDED and required for limited warranty. See
enclosed warranty form. WE DO NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR INSTALLATIONS!
2. Dual row retrofit kit for dual row only IMS's & single row kit for single row only!
3. If engine is running, use PST2, PIWIS, or equivalent tester to read live DME values for rough running
threshold and camshaft deviation.
4. Prior to starting this repair, drain oil, remove filter and oil pan and inspect for debris and clean. If any foreign
object debris is present from an IMS bearing that was in the process of failing or failed, we recommend installing a
magnetic drain plug and spin-on full flow oil filtration kit (both sold separately).
5. Put engine at TDC, and lock out the pulley so the engine cannot turn over.
6. Pull cam plugs and make note of position. It is recommended that the cams are locked out using factory cam
timing tool. If two sets of cam tools are available, it is possible to modify the tool to allow both sets of cams to be
locked, even with the engine in the car.
7. Then remove the three (3) chain tensioners. If worn or noisy, replace.
8. Remove hub flange.
9. If center stud/bearing support is broken, use Kukko 21-4 internal extractor to pull from inner race. If all
that remains is an outer race, a Kukko 21-6 internal extractor with a 22-2 counterstay can be used to pull from the
outer race. If the bearing has “welded” itself around the perimeter of the bearing housing bore or snap ring groove is
damaged in any way, do not proceed with the IMS retrofitting.
10. If it is a single row bearing, remove the snap ring. Otherwise, for dual row bearings, proceed as the retaining
wire-loc is internal and will collapse as you pull on it.
11. Thread hex bar adapter onto existing bearing support / center stud (already attached to bearing puller, sold
separately)
12. Adjust nut until sleeve of bearing puller is resting on the face of the intermediate shaft (around bearing
housing bore) and lubricate puller before extracting bearing. When bearing has been extracted, the bearing and puller
will come away from the engine as a single unit.
13. Clean out IMS tube to ensure no debris (if present) enters crankcase.
14. Remove nut and SPARE o-ring from new bearing support (already pressed into new bearing in center race)
and slide the aluminum bearing driver/installation tool over the stud, counter-bored side facing outside of engine.
Drop in 12 point nut and snug up to hold the bearing, bearing support/center stud, and bearing driver/installation tool
as a single unit.
15. Holding the installation tool, use a snap on dead blow (red, plasticized hammer) and gently tap new bearing
into place. Intermediate shaft will move backwards towards the pulley side of the engine until the other end of the
shaft is resting on the backside of the oil pump console, so don't hammer too hard. Bearing should go in easy. Install
spiro-loc on dual row or snap-ring on single row bearing.
16. You are now ready to install the new hub flange. Inspect seal for damage as well as bore in the block for any
imperfections that might cause the new seal or flange to leak. Take care not to damage o-ring located in new hub
flange, using an o-ring lubricant on seal to facilitate easy installation. Once new flange is started, use three (3) M6X25
bolts, tightening in a star pattern slowly to draw in the new hub flange in.
17. Once home, remove M6X25 bolts and replace with new micro-encapsulated bolts. Although optional, you can
use flange sealant on bottom of head of the bolt.
18. The center bearing support 12 point nut can be installed and torqued to the factory spec. Do not exceed 24
ft/lb if using the “goodandtight” method. Use flange sealant (Loctite 574 or Curil T) on bottom of head of the bolt and
use wicking (green) Loctite on the exposed threads of the center bearing support/stud and 12 point nut. If the small oring
is damaged or leaks, the use of flange and thread sealants should prevent a leak.
19. OPTIONAL Replace accessible case perimeter bolts with new factory micro-encapsulated bolts.
20. OPTIONAL Replace rear main seal with updated part number 997-101-212-01.
21. Although care has been taken to provide adequate clearance, care must be taken to ensure engine turns over
once flywheel/flex plate is installed (use new fasteners) and that there is no interference between the flange and
flywheel/flex plate. If there is interference, carefully grind the area of contact.
22. Engine timing should be verified after installation and re-timed if cam timing slips. If available, record DME
live value for rough running threshold and camshaft deviation. If deviation is more than 7.5 degrees, re-time cams.

[Jake Raby]

Pulling any of the IMS related components with the engine in any other position than TDC and locked is absolutely going to lead to big time complications.. TDC is the ONLY location where the valve train is completely unloaded.

I have no idea why people do this over and over again both professional and DIY. Instructions don't help, because most don't read them and those who do generally don't absorb the information.

The VERY first thing that is done in this procedure is to locate TDC, the second thing is to lock the crank there...
I know- I developed the procedure from scratch and designed that puller~

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Pulling any of the IMS related components with the engine in any other position than TDC and locked is absolutely going to lead to big time complications.. TDC is the ONLY location where the valve train is completely unloaded.

I have no idea why people do this over and over again both professional and DIY. Instructions don't help, because most don't read them and those who do generally don't absorb the information.

The VERY first thing that is done in this procedure is to locate TDC, the second thing is to lock the crank there...
I know- I developed the procedure from scratch and designed that puller~

I have over 20k miles on my self installed LNE bearing, your instructions work. Thank you for providing the installation information and making the bearings available for the "do-it-yourself" guys that enjoy working on their cars as much as they like driving them.

[truegearhead]

Jager thanks again for al your help. I took a few days off and dove back into the project last night. I modified the IMS removal tool by grinding an angle into it to help overcome the offset bearing, it worked great and the bearing came right out! The bearing really is in perfect shape, it looks and feels brand new and is a double row bearing. I still can't get the two header bolts I snapped out but I think I'm just going to reassemble everything and drag it to the shop to have them extracted.

[Jager]

Have you installed the new bearing?

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by Jager

Have you installed the new bearing?

I just got stuck. The bearing is in, I have a 97 so I have the dual row bearing. I installed the bearing, then the spacer and then the clip and everything seems to fit together nicely except that the spacing is off. See the attached pictures. I don't have room for the spacer under the nut. Is it possible that the write is written incorrectly and the spacer is designed to go on before the bearing?

[2000boxster986]

To JFP in PA: I too am installing my IMS bearing via the Pelican article and have the sprocket locked with three set screws. Two tensioners are removed as well per the Pelican article. My IMS is also cocked a bit in the case hole.
Now I'm concerned after reading your response below... I currently have a new (pelican) bearing stuck half way in the IMS and hopefully will be pulling it back out when LN sends a hexagon shaft tool to fit the new bearing shaft (ordered it yesterday)... Once/if I get the bearing out is it possible to put tensioners back in (or not) and rotate to TDC? I don't think I want any movement here but need to ask. If this isn't possible then I'm going to make a lock that fits to the engine case and one or two of the bolts on the flywheel flange.
Too bad the LN and Pelican procedures are so different. Seems it can really get us hobbyist in hot water. Appreciate any info you wish to share on my issue. It appears others have been in similar positions. Thank you, Rgs, John mickymingjh@gmail.com

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by 2000boxster986

To JFP in PA: I too am installing my IMS bearing via the Pelican article and have the sprocket locked with three set screws. Two tensioners are removed as well per the Pelican article. My IMS is also cocked a bit in the case hole.
Now I'm concerned after reading your response below... I currently have a new (pelican) bearing stuck half way in the IMS and hopefully will be pulling it back out when LN sends a hexagon shaft tool to fit the new bearing shaft (ordered it yesterday)... Once/if I get the bearing out is it possible to put tensioners back in (or not) and rotate to TDC? I don't think I want any movement here but need to ask. If this isn't possible then I'm going to make a lock that fits to the engine case and one or two of the bolts on the flywheel flange.
Too bad the LN and Pelican procedures are so different. Seems it can really get us hobbyist in hot water. Appreciate any info you wish to share on my issue. It appears others have been in similar positions. Thank you, Rgs, John mickymingjh@gmail.com

I got around this by grinding an angle into the ims pulling tool so the bearing would funnel into the cylinder. The funnel straightened the bearing as I pulled it out and once it was most of the way into the removal tool I inserted the set screws. I used an angle grinder to grind the angle into the tool and it turned out pretty precise(for an angle grinder). If your nervous to grind your but want to give it a shot I can send you mine.

I agree with you, it is unfortunate that the LN and pelican procedures are different.

[2000boxster986]

Hi Truegearhead. Thank you for the offer. If you have a pic that would be perfect. My removal tool does have a bevel inside to help guide the bearing so I'm thinking this might be what you're referring to, if not a pic would sure be appreciated.

JFP, Thank you, I copy!
The sad part is this; I had TDC locked to begin with (before I stated with the old bearing pull) then I read and re-read the Pelican article and thought I was doing something wrong... so, I switched methods and locked the sprocket once all three holes showed showed some sprocket meat. I figured this method was to prevent having a chain slip at the IMS sprocket so it made sense to lock the sprocket. Now knowing the sprocket is press fit concerns me. The set screws are just hand tight, no more. What further concerns me is the new bearing I now have stuck on the damn IMS. Hopefully the LNE tool will arrive soon so I can get that off and attempt a re-install providing I didn't damage anything. So next would be install the bearing correctly and then try to get the cover back on. So I may have to release the third tensioner to get the IMS to move back to center. I'll try that.
I realize I've followed a procedure here that was supposed to work but it appears to have some issues. Granted more research would have been a good idea... but that didn't happen and now it may backfire, I hope not! I appreciate your expertise and response. Cheers, John

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by 2000boxster986

Hi Truegearhead. Thank you for the offer. If you have a pic that would be perfect. My removal tool does have a bevel inside to help guide the bearing so I'm thinking this might be what you're referring to, if not a pic would sure be appreciated.

JFP, Thank you, I copy!
The sad part is this; I had TDC locked to begin with (before I stated with the old bearing pull) then I read and re-read the Pelican article and thought I was doing something wrong... so, I switched methods and locked the sprocket once all three holes showed showed some sprocket meat. I figured this method was to prevent having a chain slip at the IMS sprocket so it made sense to lock the sprocket. Now knowing the sprocket is press fit concerns me. The set screws are just hand tight, no more. What further concerns me is the new bearing I now have stuck on the damn IMS. Hopefully the LNE tool will arrive soon so I can get that off and attempt a re-install providing I didn't damage anything. So next would be install the bearing correctly and then try to get the cover back on. So I may have to release the third tensioner to get the IMS to move back to center. I'll try that.
I realize I've followed a procedure here that was supposed to work but it appears to have some issues. Granted more research would have been a good idea... but that didn't happen and now it may backfire, I hope not! I appreciate your expertise and response. Cheers, John

Mine had a bevel as well and I could feel the bearing pull into the bevel but then stop which is what gave me the idea to cut the sharp angle into the puller. I'll send a pic when I'm able to get back to the garage

[2000boxster986]

Here's the pic of the issue with the bearing. It didn't take much to get it off kilter... It won't move at all. I can rotate the shaft and feel the bearings track so it's under some pressure (or I damaged it). The brace is very similar to what Feelyx used.
Thank you guys for sharing my pain. I'm sure it will be fine as soon as I get that pesky bearing back out.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by 2000boxster986

To JFP in PA: I too am installing my IMS bearing via the Pelican article and have the sprocket locked with three set screws. Two tensioners are removed as well per the Pelican article. My IMS is also cocked a bit in the case hole.
Now I'm concerned after reading your response below... I currently have a new (pelican) bearing stuck half way in the IMS and hopefully will be pulling it back out when LN sends a hexagon shaft tool to fit the new bearing shaft (ordered it yesterday)... Once/if I get the bearing out is it possible to put tensioners back in (or not) and rotate to TDC? I don't think I want any movement here but need to ask. If this isn't possible then I'm going to make a lock that fits to the engine case and one or two of the bolts on the flywheel flange.
Too bad the LN and Pelican procedures are so different. Seems it can really get us hobbyist in hot water. Appreciate any info you wish to share on my issue. It appears others have been in similar positions. Thank you, Rgs, John mickymingjh@gmail.com

There are several large issues here, some involving the board owners, so I will try to “tread lightly” in deference to that.

I do not like the “three set screw” method for exactly the reason I stated; the rear gear on the intermediate shaft is an interference press fit. Pushing on it with threaded devices is asking for trouble. If you dislodge the gear even a little bit by pushing on it with set screws, the rear cam chains will be moved “off axis” towards the case, which is not a good thing as there is no known way to correct this without total disassembly of the engine. Worse yet, using the set screws at all is completely unnecessary if you had followed the LN procedure’s that Jake Raby developed in conjunction with Charles Navarro. Their procedure is slightly more complicated, but it goes smoothly every time.

The reason your shaft is off center is because the remaining tensioner is still loading it, which pulls it to one side. From your question, I have to assume that you are not currently at TDC, and are also not using the cam holding tools. If that is the case, I would not try to reinstall the tensioners you removed and then rotate the crank as the odds are very poor on getting away with that while there is no flange holding the rear of the IMS shaft bearing. Removing the third tensioner might be a better way to get it centered up so you can reassemble everything, but there is also no guarantee on the outcome of that approach.

I really hate to sound so negative about these procedure’s, but unfortunately like most things in life, there is usually one way to do something without encountering issues, and a whole bunch of “short cut” methods to do it that don’t always work out as intended. Some have had good luck using methodology different from LN’s procedures, but not all have been so fortunate, and some have ended up being outright disastrous.

[gonzojive]

I am in a similar situation as others in this thread except that I have not yet extracted the original bearing. I have set screws in place but the bearing is off-center. Only 2 of the 3 tensioners are out. Some ideas for getting the job done from here:

1) Remove 3rd tensioner in attempt to center the bearing in the case hole. Is there significant risk of a timing slip from removing the third tensioner? I have an '01, 5-chain engine.

2) Try to get the engine to TDC, then use cam lock (which came with the ln retrofit kit) and follow ln engineering instructions from the top. To do this, the idea is to reinstall the tensioners and then rotate the engine manually to TDC. JFP stated this is unlikely to work because the flange from the ims bearing is no longer being held in place by the cover. In my case, the old ims bearing is still installed, so I think I have two options to keep it centered while I move to TDC:

a) reinstall the cover. Since the flange is now off-center I'm not sure if this will work. Plus, the flange is broken and would not be able to be secured from the outside of the engine case.

b) use the LN easy-out tool in combination with the removal tool to keep the IMS centered while reinstalling the tensioners and rotating the engine to TDC.

Any feedback on these approaches? I am especially curious about what the risks are when removing the third tensioner--I don't want to mess up the timing.

Image below. FYI, the set screws are just m6 bolts with their heads chopped off: