if its not one thing its another - top problem now

[ferrytrip1]

Having got my 2002 2.7 149k Km LHD back from the shop yesterday after an AFT fluid change that hopefully cures the red light today the top started to act odd. I live in Dubai so the top is operated 2 - 3 times a day.

Symptoms:

When opening I heard a "clunk" 3 times from behind the passenger seat as though the top transmission had to overcome an obstacle during its travel.

I operated the top 2 - 3 times then it stopped moving completely, it was in the open position but not locked - light still on. I drove it home - 3 km but the top still would not move.

When the switch is depressed (bit like me right now) I could hear the motor trying to engage and the clamshell tried to move but didnt.

I left it for 30 mins or so and the top started to move and I got it into the service position then it stuck again.

While it was in this position I checked the motor and drive cables. The driver side cable seemed to spin freely [so suspect it may have snapped at the other end] The passenger side was more difficult to turn.

When all reassembled and pressing the switch I could see that the passenger side was trying to turn as the torque from the motor deflected the cable and I could see it move - not so on the dirver side.

My diagnosis is leading to a couple of areas.

1. driver side cable is broken due to it spinning inside its outer sheath when disconnected from the motor

2. the passenger transmission may be on its way out - possibly due to it doing all the work if the driver cable is bust.

Until today the top has been fine - operated smoothly.

I think the electrics are ok - windows seem to reflect what the roof is doing.

I left it another 30 mins and got it to close from the service position - I tried to open again but it only went back to the service position so I closed and came back to the reasearch.

Question: Does the motor just keep turning until the limit switches tell it to stop? If so If I remove the cables will this be a good indication that the motor is OK - It may have a flatspot or other damage.

Appreciate thoughts, pointers, advice what to do next to investigate the cause. Right now the top is closed but the light is on.

Where will I find photos to aid in removing the arms / rods if I need to remove the top transmissions?

If I remove the hex bolt from the pushh rod on each side will the the top should move by itself - is this manual mode? Is the "boomerang2 control lever threaded - I assume so. The driver side rod has has a white cap, passenger a red cap. Removeing hte hex bolt will clarify is the top has a resriction and can take the load of the transmission so I might be able to cycle it that way and also identify if both sides are bing driven by the motor - is this right?

Thanks, Simon

[schoir]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

...
Question: Does the motor just keep turning until the limit switches tell it to stop?

Yes. In your '02 Boxster, there are two microswitches INSIDE the driver's (left) side transmission and a 360 degree gear.

If so If I remove the cables will this be a good indication that the motor is OK - It may have a flatspot or other damage.

After you remove the drive cables from the sides of the electric motor, you should be able to see the small, square output flanges spinning when you apply 12 volts to the electric motor (whether by means of the switch or a 12 volt battery). These electric motors do sometimes get "dead spots", but that is not a very common occurrence.

Appreciate thoughts, pointers, advice what to do next to investigate the cause. Right now the top is closed but the light is on.

Where will I find photos to aid in removing the arms / rods if I need to remove the top transmissions?

Take a look at this link for photos and instructions on how to remove the transmissions: installinga'03-'04glasstopandframeona'97 - mikefocke2
Specifically look at the Part II PDF at pages 18 to 22. (Note that the transmissions shown in that DIY are the "A Version" transmissions, and yours are the "B Version" transmissions but that the removal/installation process is identical, except that in yours, you have to first disconnect the plug that goes into the front of the driver's side transmission--- the transmission in which the two limit microswitches are contained).



If I remove the hex bolt from the pushh rod on each side will the the top should move by itself - is this manual mode?

No, that's a "messy" way to do it. For manual mode, disconnect the plastic ball cups (one red and one white on your particular Boxster) or unbolt the 10mm bolt with fat washer to separate the two parts of the front pushrods. Either one will allow the convertible top canvas and its frame to move manually. For the clamshell to move manually, you have to disconnect the black "hydraulic" pushrods.


Is the "boomerang2 control lever threaded - I assume so.

No, there is a keyway behind the V-lever that fits into the female slot in the center of the transmission.

The driver side rod has has a white cap, passenger a red cap.

The white plastic ball cups are the updated, more durable, version of the red plastic ball cups.

Removeing hte hex bolt will clarify is the top has a resriction and can take the load of the transmission so I might be able to cycle it that way and also identify if both sides are bing driven by the motor - is this right?

Yes. Once you disconnect the front pushrods (by using one of the two methods above), and the rear black pushrods, you can then see if the V-levers rotate freely while they are still attached to the transmissions. Be careful not to allow the dangling pushrods (once they are disconnected) to dig into the foam drain trays.

Thanks, Simon

Regards, Maurice.

[ferrytrip1]

Thanks Maurice, I had a quick look this morning before going to work. I disconnected the cables at the motor - ran it with the switch - it ran fast and smooth both ways. So that seems ok.

I pulled the inner drive cables - both are same length, both had the square drive ends so I assume they are both OK.

The top will now open and close with some hand assistance and there is still a clunking on the passenger side. The open light stays on when it is either open or closed. When closed it sounds like it is trying to finish the procedure but not quite getting there.

Tonight I will look to pull the rods and see how the top works without the xmsn to see if if it is smooth operation.

I have found a number of xmsn on e-bay - what part number should I look for and anything I should ask the seller?

Having read the posts you pointed me to I looked at the motor - is the lever that is now ziptied to he bracket off an earlier model? Mine does not seem to have it.

Thanks

Simon

Thanks

Simon

[schoir]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

Thanks Maurice, I had a quick look this morning before going to work. I disconnected the cables at the motor - ran it with the switch - it ran fast and smooth both ways. So that seems ok.

I pulled the inner drive cables - both are same length, both had the square drive ends so I assume they are both OK.

The top will now open and close with some hand assistance and there is still a clunking on the passenger side. The open light stays on when it is either open or closed. When closed it sounds like it is trying to finish the procedure but not quite getting there.

Tonight I will look to pull the rods and see how the top works without the xmsn to see if if it is smooth operation.

I have found a number of xmsn on e-bay - what part number should I look for and anything I should ask the seller?

Having read the posts you pointed me to I looked at the motor - is the lever that is now ziptied to he bracket off an earlier model? Mine does not seem to have it.

Thanks

Simon

Thanks

Simon

The lever that is ziptied to the bracket is the "black lever microswitch" which was used on the "A-Version" systems. It would get pressed down by the clamshell and that would send a signal to turn off the electric motor and the idiot light after a pre-determined "after-running time" (as Porsche put it). That black lever microswitch is one of the two microswitches that was moved to the inside of the driver's side transmission. It was used on the '97 to '99 Boxsters. Your Boxster may still have the cut-out in the black plastic cover that goes over the electric motor (even though it no longer has the black lever microswitch).

If you are getting used transmissions, just make sure that you are getting the "B-Version" transmissions and that they were working when removed. The part numbers are 986 561 179 03 for the left side and 986 561 180 03 for the right
side.

Regards, Maurice.

[ferrytrip1]

Before I start what is the best way to disconnect the clamshell from the V Bar? Do I prise off the ball end or disconnect at the other?

Thanks

Simon

[schoir]

You can do it from either side, but if you are going to be rotating the V-levers you will have to pry off the end that is pressed onto the V-lever's steel ball.

The important thing is to operate the top so that there is no pressure being exerted by the large spring inside the black "hydraulic" pushrod. It's doable in the service position.

Regards, Maurice.

[ferrytrip1]

Originally Posted by schoir

You can do it from either side, but if you are going to be rotating the V-levers you will have to pry off the end that is pressed onto the V-lever's steel ball.

The important thing is to operate the top so that there is no pressure being exerted by the large spring inside the black "hydraulic" pushrod. It's doable in the service position.

Regards, Maurice.

today I released the top from the pushrod levers and the top itself is as free to move as a free thing on a free day - so its not the top binding. I operated the switch and the binding is still there. Clamshell jerks and does not close properly.

Next I will disconnect the clamshell - though not sure what you mean by your last para. If I pry the ball end off will this have the effect you talk about?

Then if the transmission operates correctly am I looking at the black hydraulic rods being bad? Is there a check to confirm that?

Thanks

Simon

[schoir]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

today I released the top from the pushrod levers and the top itself is as free to move as a free thing on a free day - so its not the top binding. I operated the switch and the binding is still there. Clamshell jerks and does not close properly.

Next I will disconnect the clamshell - though not sure what you mean by your last para. If I pry the ball end off will this have the effect you talk about?

Then if the transmission operates correctly am I looking at the black hydraulic rods being bad? Is there a check to confirm that?

Thanks

Simon

Simon:

If the clamshell is jerking, you should also verify that the rails in which the black plastic sliders ride back and forth are well lubricated. It could be as simple as that.

The last paragraph of my previous post means that in certain positions of the top, there is a great deal of pressure applied by the black "hydraulic" pushrods to hold the clamshell shut. When the clamshell is down, it is very difficult to pry off the black pushrods off the steel balls on the V-lever. If you pry off the pushrod from the steel ball on the V-lever, the clamshell should move just as freely as your now- disconnected canvas portion of the top does.

The black pushrods only go bad when their ends sometimes get bent. If you can get one of those in a vise and apply enough pulling pressure, you can test whether the large spring inside is intact and functioning properly. It takes a LOT of force to pull it.

Regards, Maurice.

[ferrytrip1]

Originally Posted by schoir

Simon:

If the clamshell is jerking, you should also verify that the rails in which the black plastic sliders ride back and forth are well lubricated. It could be as simple as that.

The last paragraph of my previous post means that in certain positions of the top, there is a great deal of pressure applied by the black "hydraulic" pushrods to hold the clamshell shut. When the clamshell is down, it is very difficult to pry off the black pushrods off the steel balls on the V-lever. If you pry off the pushrod from the steel ball on the V-lever, the clamshell should move just as freely as your now- disconnected canvas portion of the top does.

The black pushrods only go bad when their ends sometimes get bent. If you can get one of those in a vise and apply enough pulling pressure, you can test whether the large spring inside is intact and functioning properly. It takes a LOT of force to pull it.

Regards, Maurice.

got it - thank you. The guides do look lubed but will check.

If I release the pushrods at the v bar so the xmsn does not drive anything will the mechanism go full travel from open to closed - ie the xmsn does not know there is no roof attached so it would just rotate as normal and stop on the limit switches. My thinking is if this is right then if both sides are ok and they rotate then the only thing left is the pushrods or the clamshell guides as you say.

will look first thing tomorrow

Thanks, Simon
YNWA

[schoir]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

.....
If I release the pushrods at the v bar so the xmsn does not drive anything will the mechanism go full travel from open to closed - ie the xmsn does not know there is no roof attached so it would just rotate as normal and stop on the limit switches.
....

Thanks, Simon
YNWA

Yes, with all four pushrods disconnected, the V-levers should rotate fully and stop at each of the two limits if the microswitches inside the transmission are functioning properly.

Regards, Maurice.

[ferrytrip1]

The pushrods are off. They look ok, you say they are sprung - they both look solid - neither end moves. I have no access to a vice so must assume they are ok.

When I get a help (early here) for somebody to press the switch while I watch the XMSN I will test the travel.

Thanks

Simon

[ferrytrip1]

Ok - Now I am stuck. With pushrods off the clamshell and the roof the motor works fine, each transmission rotates the same to the limits and the dash light goes out. The clamshell movement is smooth both up and down by hand. No signs of twisting.

When I connect the clamshell pushrods the passenger side is a little jerky and it seems to struggle unless I give the clamshell a bit of a helping hand.

Could I be back to the motor struggling under load?

Any other thoughts or things to check? How can I check if the pushrods are ok?

Thanks, Simon

[ferrytrip1]

I have been away for a week and in my down time I kept wondering what my issue could be. So tomorrow I am going to reconnect the roof pushrods and leave the clamshell ones off. If I hold the clamshell open will I be able to operate the roof up and down as normal? It all looks like it should.

This will indicate if the transmissions are working under load.

If the don't I will pull the transmission cable from the motor and check to see if each transmission will turn by hand and check for binding there.

Any other pointers would be gratefully accepted.

Thanks

Simon

[ferrytrip1]

After I connected the pushrods to the roof I tried to open the roof - the transmissions struggled and made the same sounds as before. I suspect the passenger side is binding or something.

Are these parts repairable/ serviceable?? Can they be dismantled and greased or anything?

I will remove it today once I get a 19mm skt

Thanks

[2003S]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

When I connect the clamshell pushrods the passenger side is a little jerky and it seems to struggle unless I give the clamshell a bit of a helping hand.

Could I be back to the motor struggling under load?

I don't think it's a load issue, both sides are driven by the same motor. Could the passenger side transmission arm just be slightly out of alignment relative to the drivers? That might cause the clamshell to be 'twisted' slightly causing what you've described?

You can disconnect the drive cable on one side, the move the motor slightly/ reattach cable to get them realigned.

[ferrytrip1]

Hi, as I was buying the 19mm socket I saw a vernier caliper set for $8 so I bought them, when I measured the distances they were not the same. I set the passenger side to the same as the driver with my drill and tried the roof - works lovely.

Now I have the clamshell pushrods mixedup so not sure which side goes to where.

They are marked "L" & "R". Is this as I look to the rear from the front. So the one marked "L" is on my left?

Thanks

[2003S]

Originally Posted by ferrytrip1

Now I have the clamshell pushrods mixedup so not sure which side goes to where.

They are marked "L" & "R". Is this as I look to the rear from the front. So the one marked "L" is on my left?

I looked on mine, and don't see the marking on the push rod, where is it? I would assume it's as you look from the rear to the front; as in "right hand drive", but if you post a pic, or describe where the marking is, I can check quickly on mine for you.

Does this picture help?


Steve

[ferrytrip1]

Hi, I think you are right - on the label the markings are 986.561.580.00.R. I found another pic that backs up what you said and I think this is the RHS looking from the back of the car to the front.

After my initial happiness it all started to go back to the initial problem. I took it all apart and the xmsn were out of sync again - suspect now that the RHS xmsn has a problem.

So I took it apart and the plastic drive has sheared.

Ar these parts available as separate items - anybody have one in a drawer anywhere?

Thanks

Simon

[2003S]

Yikes, good luck to you - you might shop a dismantler? a replacement transmission is quite pricey for just that part...

Pelican Parts - Product Information: 987-561-180-01-M100

[ferrytrip1]

I tried to glue the part but it only lasted for 2 top operations. The teeth were in pretty bad shape too.

I got a pair of transmissions and cables for little under $100 from e-bay - replaced the bad one - works a treat. Much better than before so I assume the plastic cog had been damaged for a while.

Locally the used car guys wanted $350 each so I will keep the other as a spare.

Thanks for all the support

Simon