Gun discussion. So piper6069 can let the other thread be.

[paulofto]

Originally Posted by DoninDel

Guns are regarded as a solution here, other nations see them as a problem.
My $.02

From a neighbour to the North of you I couldn't agree more. Your opinion is worth way more than 2 cents and it is refreshing to hear it.

[Starter986]

Peace through superior firepower.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by DoninDel

My thoughts are that we have become WAY too comfortable with seeing guns in public. We are unique among civilized nations in that, and I believe there is a connection. Guns are regarded as a solution here, other nations see them as a problem.

My $.02

Huh.
So, this is diametrically opposed to my own experience.

What -I- see, is that we have demonized guns to the point that we can't admit at work that we're owners, for fear of excoriation. I rarely / never see guns in public. I know some who conceal / carry, but they're very, very low key. If thet aren't, they're accosted by activists everywhere they go. Mothers shield their children from their view if a LEO walks in with his sidearm exposed.

This is directly opposite of what my generation experienced, and probably yours too? We all had guns to go plinking with. In my state and those around mine, every year kids got out of school for ther deer hunt. (We called it UEA, but we all knew what it was for). Several weeks prior to this, every adolescent Male was at the range with dad and grandpa, sighting 'em in.

And there were no shootings in the news.

I don't see any indication that we have become "....way too comfortable seeing guns in public...".
Just the opposite, frankly.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Starter986

Peace through superior firepower.

And... On the micro level, let's hope that more kids don't find their mother's gun in her purse and accidentally blow her head off.

And on the macro level, let's hope we still have cooler heads in our leaders so if we should ever run into another issue like a Cuban Missile Crisis we won't go from a pissing contest directly into nuclear world destruction.

[Burg Boxster]

Originally Posted by piper6909

And... On the micro level, let's hope that more kids don't find their mother's gun in her purse and accidentally blow her head off.

And on the macro level, let's hope we still have cooler heads in our leaders so if we should ever run into another issue like a Cuban Missile Crisis we won't go from a pissing contest directly into nuclear world destruction.

Cuban Missile Crisis & Bay of Pigs et al? Not exactly citations which support "cooler heads". Just sayin'...

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by piper6909

I believe in our men and women in uniform and I believe they will defy illegal orders to attack us. Because they are us. Our friends, Our relatives. Cheers to them and cheers to us!

They did fire on relatives and friends before they'll do it again. (in this very country no less)

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Burg Boxster

Cuban Missile Crisis & Bay of Pigs et al? Not exactly citations which support "cooler heads". Just sayin'...

True, mistakes were made along the way. But in the end when 'national security advisers' were pushing a military escalation, yes, cooler heads prevailed.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by Qingdao

They did fire on relatives and friends before they'll do it again. (in this very country no less)

? ? ?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by maytag

? ? ?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

1860-1865


I know for a fact that my ancestors were on the CSA. I think there were some from the Union, but I don't know for sure about those*. Regardless after words they clearly became family.


*my maternal grandfather was from Baltimore.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Qingdao

They did fire on relatives and friends before they'll do it again. (in this very country no less)

When a group is hell bent on breaking up the USA, going to war with them doesn't really constitute an illegal order to attack. It doesn't matter whether it's blue states or red states. If they break away from the USA, by default they forfeit their citizenship.

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by piper6909

When a group is hell bent on breaking up the USA, going to war with them doesn't really constitute an illegal order to attack. It doesn't matter whether it's blue states or red states. If they break away from the USA, by default they forfeit their citizenship.

You didn't specify citizenship you wrote friends and family.



So a group of people aren't allowed to leave the country?

Are we allowed to leave individually?

What if we feel that other states are dictating what we do in our states (say for instance with what we do with guns or cars)?

What if we feel like each state should more independent, be separated from other states politically because of their inherent differences geographically which lead to needing different rules?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Qingdao

You didn't specify citizenship you wrote friends and family.



So a group of people aren't allowed to leave the country?

Are we allowed to leave individually?

What if we feel that other states are dictating what we do in our states (say for instance with what we do with guns or cars)?

What if we feel like each state should more independent, be separated from other states politically because of their inherent differences geographically which lead to needing different rules?

But I did say "Illegal orders to attack". If a group wants to secede and is hell bent on breaking up the USA, that constitutes an act of war. Then orders to attack would not be illegal, just as they weren't illegal in the Civil War. Unfortunate as it was.

Any individual or group can leave. Pick up and leave. Go elsewhere. They're free to do so. If they fundamentally don't like America they are free to leave. Or they can legally organize and effect changes by electing leaders more favorable to their interests. Breaking up the USA is a whole different animal.

States already have independence. Case in point, some states legalized cannibus use, while others haven't. It's when said states want to break away from, and thus breaking up the USA that there will be problems.

[DoninDel]

Originally Posted by SMK Shoe

So you are all for the police to stop a law abiding citizen just to check if they have a weapon and if so it's unloaded. Sounds like a police state to me. What other rights are you willing to give up to feel safer

How is that different from a cop pulling you over and asking for license and registration?

I worked in Manhattan for years and YOU are the one going thru life in fear???

[DoninDel]

Originally Posted by maytag

Watch it....
I brought this thread into the world, and I can take it out....

Actually.... not sure if i can.
But in the spirit of the new year, please accept my plea for Kumbaya.

Piper, I've learned to read your messages, which tend to be inflammatory, as if you were in front of me, with a ****************-eating grin on your face because you're TRYING to push my buttons, and enjoying that you can. ;-) I'd suggest this method to some others here, as well.

I'd appeal to our commonalities here, recognizing that none of us are stupid, and that the differences in our lifes' experiences and education can shape our outlook on policies. We can disagree with someone and still respect their intellect and intention.

Yes.... this is a "can't we ask just get along?" Post.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I appreciate your sentiment, and agree.
I used to argue every day at work with a guy who was my political opposite. One day, he said "I bet you hate me because we are always at odds." I answered, "No I respect you. I think you are wrong, but at least you care and are willing to defend what you think - who I hate are the aprox. HALF of the people who are too lazy to vote."
Giving thought is always better than being thoughtless.

[DoninDel]

Originally Posted by SMK Shoe

So you are all for the police to stop a law abiding citizen just to check if they have a weapon and if so it's unloaded. Sounds like a police state to me. What other rights are you willing to give up to feel safer

How does that differ from a cop pulling you over and asking to see license, registration and insurance???

I really find it funny that I worked in Manhattan and Joisey City for years and YOU are the one that is afraid....

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by Burg Boxster

Cuban Missile Crisis & Bay of Pigs et al? Not exactly citations which support "cooler heads". Just sayin'...

My Dad is the man that found the 1st missile site under construction in Oct 1962.

[SMK Shoe]

Originally Posted by DoninDel

How does that differ from a cop pulling you over and asking to see license, registration and insurance???

I really find it funny that I worked in Manhattan and Joisey City for years and YOU are the one that is afraid....

Was trying to stay out of this, but here we go.

Last I knew a cop had to have some reason to pull you over. Seems like there is a amendment about unlawful search and seizure, but whatever. You are so willing to give up your rights, so who care about civil liberties.

Wow, you worked in Manhattan and joist city, good for you. NO, I do not walk around afraid because I know I can defend myself and my family.

You want to feel nervous, Walk a patrol in Baghdad, or outside the green zone, or the albon village complex, or up around tikrit, OR the pesh river valley, or the Korgal valley. Not even gonna sit here and list them all. If you have never picked up a weapon and defended this country, why are you so willing to give up our rights that you didn't put anything on the line to protect.

If YOU don't want to be able to protect your family, that's fine. Don't stop me from doing it.

Three types in this world. Wolves, Sheep, and Sheep dogs.

Sheep dogs try to protect the sheep

Wolves try to eat the sheep

Sheep think as long as they don't see a wolf in front of them that there are no wolves.

You must decide what you are. I know from over 26 years of service what group I fall in.

I just hope one day you don't wake up and see a wolf at the door, and wonder where the sheep dogs are.


And if you think people CC because they are afraid, then you just don't get it. I am not afraid, I carry because I've seen the wolf and will make sure I am between it and the Sheep. Just say thank you to the people keeping you and your family safe since you don't have the fortitude to do it.

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by piper6909

But I did say "Illegal orders to attack". If a group wants to secede and is hell bent on breaking up the USA, that constitutes an act of war. Then orders to attack would not be illegal, just as they weren't illegal in the Civil War. Unfortunate as it was.

Any individual or group can leave. Pick up and leave. Go elsewhere. They're free to do so. If they fundamentally don't like America they are free to leave. Or they can legally organize and effect changes by electing leaders more favorable to their interests. Breaking up the USA is a whole different animal.

States already have independence. Case in point, some states legalized cannibus use, while others haven't. It's when said states want to break away from, and thus breaking up the USA that there will be problems.

I believe legislation was tried and exhausted as a last means for decades before shots were fired on us that started the War Between the States.



Bringing it back full circle; yes the military is smart enough not to place their troops so randomly that they might encounter their relatives/family members. They have done it before.

So mindless automatons set for kill… no, but strategically placed people who don't care or are "just following orders" Yes. I was just citing northern aggression as a close to home example. But trust me around the world are much more grievous examples of humans behaving in such a manner.

[maytag]

WOW. So much here.....

I'll start with the bit that made me decide to actually respond again:

Qingdao, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that the "war between the states" was caused by the "Northern agressors", and that this is an example of the government overreach that can result in a government taking-up arms against its citizens, and brothers fighting brothers. Am I understanding that correctly?

Because if I AM understanding you..... well, that's gonna steam me.... haha :troll:

The Southern states were, in fact, KILLING PEOPLE. Just because they were not WHITE, doesn't mean they weren't PEOPLE who were being mistreated, abused and KILLED. You think that wasn't enough to justify the "Northern Agressors" to do something about it? Oh sure.... I've heard it all before: "it's about states' rights." We're hearing it all again now, about Gay Marriage.... "states' rights" was code-talk for "We want the right to OWN PEOPLE and RAPE THEM and KILL THEM, and we don't want the rest of you saying we can't".

You want to know what sort of people were in that southern-states army? You shouldn;t have to look any further than what they were fighting to protect; but if you need more, then look no further than General Lee himself, who ordered the summary execution of EVERY MAN NOT WEARING THE Confederate Uniform as they retreated across the United States, beaten. That's right: he knew the war was over. He knew they were beaten. And as they tore back west to avoid the Union troops, they executed THOUSANDS of men, on the excuse that they were "either spies or deserters." LEE was a coward, and an A$$-Bag. and he SLAUGHTERED many of my wife's family tree.
YEAH.... THAT'S what kind of people were fighting against the government.

And as Piper already said: that wasn't an "illegal order to take up arms", that was an order to PUT DOWN a treasonous Insurrection.
And NO: you don't just get to decide you don;t want to be a part of the club anymore and take your state and go home. Sure: YOU can leave.... but do plan to leave your state where it belongs.

I can't believe we're reaching this far, and grasping at this many straws to try to defend gun rights. and this from ME: a 2nd Amendment SUPPORTER!


And SMK SHOE!!??
SO. RIGHT. ON.
and Thank You!
I'm not sure I could disagree with any of what you just said.... even if I felt so inclined.

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by maytag

WOW. So much here.....

I'll start with the bit that made me decide to actually respond again:

Qingdao, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that the "war between the states" was caused by the "Northern agressors", and that this is an example of the government overreach that can result in a government taking-up arms against its citizens, and brothers fighting brothers. Am I understanding that correctly?

Because if I AM understanding you..... well, that's gonna steam me.... haha :troll:

The Southern states were, in fact, KILLING PEOPLE. Just because they were not WHITE, doesn't mean they weren't PEOPLE who were being mistreated, abused and KILLED. You think that wasn't enough to justify the "Northern Agressors" to do something about it? Oh sure.... I've heard it all before: "it's about states' rights." We're hearing it all again now, about Gay Marriage.... "states' rights" was code-talk for "We want the right to OWN PEOPLE and RAPE THEM and KILL THEM, and we don't want the rest of you saying we can't".

You want to know what sort of people were in that southern-states army? You shouldn;t have to look any further than what they were fighting to protect; but if you need more, then look no further than General Lee himself, who ordered the summary execution of EVERY MAN NOT WEARING THE Confederate Uniform as they retreated across the United States, beaten. That's right: he knew the war was over. He knew they were beaten. And as they tore back west to avoid the Union troops, they executed THOUSANDS of men, on the excuse that they were "either spies or deserters." LEE was a coward, and an A$$-Bag. and he SLAUGHTERED many of my wife's family tree.
YEAH.... THAT'S what kind of people were fighting against the government.

And as Piper already said: that wasn't an "illegal order to take up arms", that was an order to PUT DOWN a treasonous Insurrection.
And NO: you don't just get to decide you don;t want to be a part of the club anymore and take your state and go home. Sure: YOU can leave.... but do plan to leave your state where it belongs.

I can't believe we're reaching this far, and grasping at this many straws to try to defend gun rights. and this from ME: a 2nd Amendment SUPPORTER!


And SMK SHOE!!??
SO. RIGHT. ON.
and Thank You!
I'm not sure I could disagree with any of what you just said.... even if I felt so inclined.

Wow way to drink the kool aid. Step one deaminize your enemy. They did that well enough with you.

Thanks for trash talking my predecessors. And not fully comprehending history.

But hey its the internet

Once again people are auguring the validity of "candy cigarettes'" as a metaphor. I could have mentioned 8 other instances where arms are taken from people and that's when government overstepping happens.