Yet another IMS "solution"

[Perfectlap]

^ Time is Limited? at 70K miles? Seriously? That sounds outrageous to me. Call me crazy but if your following proper maintenance, letting the oil temp come up before beating on it, did the LN retrofit and maybe are laying off a little during winter, then it seems nuts to think the engine won't last you another 10 years.
But then again...I don't fix engines. I thought I was buying a Porsche not a FIAT/Ferrari!!

[thom4782]

I don't think it's amazing at all that your car is running after 12 years with 70K miles. While there may be 20 failure modes, most are pretty rare so 95%+ of the M96 engines last a long, long time. So I'd stop worrying.

The probably of an IMSB failure is very low especially if you change oil more frequently than Porsche recommends. One can improve his or her odds by installing an LN Retrofit bearing when one replaces the clutch. Then the chances of a subsequent IMSB failure become vanishingly small. At worst, one might want to check the LN bearing at 50K miles use to see if it has any play or wear. My bet is that the Retrofit will last much longer than 50K miles.

Second, one might want to replace the chain pads and tensioners in high mileage cars especially if one sees pad debris in the oil filter or sump. Other than that, I'm not sure there is much one can do to guard against the other failure modes.

Hope my 2 cents helps put things perspective.

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

^ Time is Limited? at 70K miles? Seriously? That sounds outrageous to me. Call me crazy but if your following proper maintenance, letting the oil temp come up before beating on it, did the LN retrofit and maybe are laying off a little during winter, then it seems nuts to think the engine won't last you another 10 years.
But then again...I don't fix engines. I thought I was buying a Porsche not a FIAT/Ferrari!!

You didn't get my sarcasm. I think that the car can last another 10 years even without the bandaids mentioned. ...and if it doesn't, it's still ok cause I already got my money's worth....

[Jake Raby]

The band aid comment cannot be too comforting to all of those who have had LN Engineering bearings installed either at Jake's shop, independent shops or DIY.

You are making something from nothing.. Anyone who we have installed a bearing kit for that wishes to apply an IMS Solution gets the full cost of the IMS Retrofit bearing (limited to the retrofit kit) knocked off the cost of their IMS Solution procedure, if we carry it out here. Of course, the only people who know that are those who are our customers already.

What I was referring to as a band aid was adding a device or a modification in lieu of proactive bearing replacements.

That means that even my IMS Guardian system is a band-aid. At least it is a non-invasive band aid that offers a symptom before failure and for a nominal cost when carried out as DIY..

The only way to avoid the common collateral damages related to ball bearing IMSB failure is to eliminate the ball bearing that creates the collateral and secondary damage.

[schoir]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

You are making something from nothing...

I resemble that remark!


"I developed the IMS Solution because I did not want a ball bearing to reside within my engines. The ball bearing is the problem and the source of all evil. Anything else is just a band aid."

The original statement speaks for itself.

Regards, Maurice.

[Stefan (Boston)]

"I developed the IMS Solution because I did not want a ball bearing to reside within my engines. The ball bearing is the problem and the source of all evil. Anything else is just a band aid."

So it follows that the "IMS Solution" consists of two very expensive band aids and a cheap bearing? (Note that when I say "cheap" I am not referring to the quality but the fact that plain bearings are less expensive than ball bearings)

From everything I've read, the source of the IMS failures is inadequate lubrication of the bearing, not issues with the quality or design of the bearing itself. Aside from being expensive and unnecessary, there is a risk associated with introducing a new type of bearing that I personally wouldn't want to take.

[rp17]

Love the no bearing technology but this lube thing looks simple.

Searching fleabay for misc parts and behold.....Another bearing kit by ANH. After seeing this with my own eyes, I still think this is a joke. They provide no details and the cost is 630.00. Has anyone tried (jk), heard of this retrofit?

Updated Engine Intermediate Shaft Bearing Kit Porsche 911 Boxster | eBay

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by rp17

Love the no bearing technology but this lube thing looks simple.

Searching fleabay for misc parts and behold.....Another bearing kit by ANH. After seeing this with my own eyes, I still think this is a joke. They provide no details and the cost is 630.00. Has anyone tried (jk), heard of this retrofit?

Updated Engine Intermediate Shaft Bearing Kit Porsche 911 Boxster | eBay

that listing could not have less information.

[rp17]

Interesting read. Got this from another thread here on the forum.


Re: I know Mike personally and professionally ...

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by rp17

Interesting read. Got this from another thread here on the forum.


Re: I know Mike personally and professionally ...

Interesting indeed.. guy's brother is Enzo Potolicchio finished 7th overall at Le Mans last year, 1st in LMP2

[Jake Raby]

(Note that when I say "cheap" I am not referring to the quality but the fact that plain bearings are less expensive than ball bearings)

Incorrect. The material that must be utilized for the IMS SOlution plain bearing is super expensive. We have paid as much as 1200 bucks for a 2' long piece of the blank material. This does not include the manufacturing process of the bearing which must maintain tolerances to .0005".

A ball bearing that is omitted from the engine is a ball bearing that cannot fail within the engine. Collateral damage from foreign object debris generated by ball bearing failure is the most expensive collateral damage that can occur from IMSB failure.
That said, I developed the IMS Solution for my engines and honestly could care less if anyone else ever buys one. My engines are my primary objective with every development that we create.

[thom4782]

At the end of the day, replacing the IMSB as preventative maintenance is just like buying insurance against a catastrophic (and really expensive) engine failure). And just like insurance, the different types of replacement options provide car Boxster owners with different levels of insurance they can buy.

Replacing the stock bearing with another stock bearing is the lowest level in that one is only offsetting aging of the original part. It's like changing oil at factory specified intervals.

The Pelican replacement bearing provides better protection because it is a relatively low cost beefed up alternative that presumably will last longer than the stock part.

The IMS Retrofit is the next higher level of insurance - much higher IMHO - against total engine destruction with its ceramic bearings and other improvements that last much longer than the stock bearing.

The IMS Solution is the highest level of protection for the following reason. If the flat design fails, no bearing debris is spread throughout the engine. Moreover, the timing chains don't jump sprockets, which would lead to pistons and valves banging into each other. It's the one option that eliminates one of the possible causes of catastrophic engine failure.

The way I see it is that each owner can decide what level of insurance he or she want to buy. It ranges from doing nothing to installing the IMS Solution. The distinctions are real; they are not band aids by any stretch of the imagination.

[schoir]

Originally Posted by thom4782

...
The IMS Solution is the highest level of protection for the following reason. If the flat design fails, no bearing debris is spread throughout the engine. Moreover, the timing chains don't jump sprockets, which would lead to pistons and valves banging into each other. It's the one option that eliminates one of the possible causes of catastrophic engine failure.
...

Since it is widely accepted that lack of lubrication is the main cause of IMS bearing failure, providing a solution which provides adequate lubrication should solve the problem. Then there is no need to unnecessarily be alarmist about pistons and valves banging into each other.

The above also ignores the additional unknowns that may be introduced by a new design with new parts. All of those parts add a level of complication which is simply not necessary to solve the problem, namely lack of lubrication.

Finally, from my limited understanding of bearings I know that journal bearings don't fare as well as roller element bearings (ball bearings) at the time when most engine wear occurs...at initial startup.

If there are any bearing engineers amongst our members, perhaps they could edify us further.

More time and more real world testing will provide the answer to the question of which approach solves the only problem that we should be considering... lack of lubrication.

In practical terms, I'm not so much interested in the "art", but more in the result. "Art for art's sake" is a good motto for MGM, but not for bearings. This would not be the first time that a less expensive, simpler solution proves to be the best solution.

Regards, Maurice.

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by schoir

Since it is widely accepted that lack of lubrication is the main cause of IMS bearing failure, providing a solution which provides adequate lubrication should solve the problem. Then there is no need to unnecessarily be alarmist about pistons and valves banging into each other.

The above also ignores the additional unknowns that may be introduced by a new design with new parts. All of those parts add a level of complication which is simply not necessary to solve the problem, namely lack of lubrication.

Finally, from my limited understanding of bearings I know that journal bearings don't fare as well as roller element bearings (ball bearings) at the time when most engine wear occurs...at initial startup.

If there are any bearing engineers amongst our members, perhaps they could edify us further.

More time and more real world testing will provide the answer to the question of which approach solves the only problem that we should be considering... lack of lubrication.

In practical terms, I'm not so much interested in the "art", but more in the result. "Art for art's sake" is a good motto for MGM, but not for bearings. This would not be the first time that a less expensive, simpler solution proves to be the best solution.

Regards, Maurice.

There are many different bearing designs. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. A hydrostatic (oil pressure fed) plain bearing is hard to beat in that the wear surfaces rise off each other and run on a film of oil. This is dependent upon bearing wear surfaces fits, tolerances, and geometrics along with lubricant pressure, flow, film strength, viscosity etc. The trick is to get appropriate oil flow to this location.

Rolling element bearings will have point load contact areas and won't be hydraulically supported to the degree of the hydrostatic plain bearing. You will have more time with metal on metal or ceramic. Without suitable oil feed a hybrid rolling element bearing is your best option. Theoretical cylindrical rolling elements would be a logical choice but they are not yet readily available and harder to make. They will also suffer if there is a thrust load component. Ceramic rolling element balls are now very common and are the standard in poor lubrication environments. Even prior to cermics ball rollers seemed to be favoured in bad conditions even though their load capacity was lower than cylinders; this is something I have found not always to be the case.

One just has to look at the other end of the IMS shaft for proof of concept. If there is suitable oil flow available then the hydrostatic plain bearing will the best option in this case

[jaykay]

Oh just wondering if there's a new product in the works for 2005+ engines where the the outer seal is removed and then and then hit with an oil feed....A Cayman owner friend of mine would want to know.....not for me

I am riding on a ceramic dual row from a while back

[kashmir]

Originally Posted by jaykay

most engine wear occurs...at initial startup

Here is a Master Lube engine pre-oiler. It is used on vehicles to pre-oil your engine before starting so as to prevent "dry starts".

[Perfectlap]

but does the factory even advise you to replace the stock IMSB like they advise you to change the motor oil?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

but does the factory even advise you to replace the stock IMSB like they advise you to change the motor oil?

No, they don't even offer a bearing part#. It is to be a non-serviced item.

The way I see it is that each owner can decide what level of insurance he or she want to buy. It ranges from doing nothing to installing the IMS Solution.

Remaining at the top of the food chain is all that matters to me. We've been there with these engines and developments since day one.

[Jake Raby]

This would not be the first time that a less expensive, simpler solution proves to be the best solution.

Its not simpler, its more complex. The same amount of components are present within the composition of the ball bearing and a sub-system is introduced. No parts are omitted with this arrangement; components are added. The IMSS may add a similar subsystem, but it removes 11 wear components as a trade-off.

The balls, cage and inner and outer races are all still residing within the engine. The simpler product is the one that has fewer wear components.

Finally, from my limited understanding of bearings I know that journal bearings don't fare as well as roller element bearings (ball bearings) at the time when most engine wear occurs...at initial startup.

And guess what? We have allowed engines to go through 5,200 start cycles and even idle for as much as 170 hours straight during development as just a small portion of the process that has taken years to develop the IMS Solution. Under UOA and particulate testing of oil samples as well as numerous visual inspections and measuring every part over and over again we determined that start up wear was nil with the IMSS. My UOA before and after 5200 starts was so close that one would not be able to note which was the before or after sample.

Idling with 5PSI oil pressure and 290 degree oil for 170 hours killed the rest of the engine, but didn't hurt the IMS Solution. This just barely touches the surface of what seven generations of IMSS development have entailed. This wasn't developed overnight, or with anything less than an open checkbook.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Idling with 5PSI oil pressure and 290 degree oil for 170 hours killed the rest of the engine, but didn't hurt the IMS Solution. This just barely touches the surface of what seven generations of IMSS development have entailed. This wasn't developed overnight, or with anything less than an open checkbook.

Hi jake,
A few questions:

1) why would an idling engine "fry" at 5 psi and 290df?

2) Why would an idling engine have an oil temp in excess of 290df?

I understand that 5psi and 290df is sub optimal, but these parameters theoretically provide better lubrication then the engine gets for the first 10 minutes of running after start up on a cold morning.

Also, why would your bearing survive while the rest "fry"? I understand the crank is under a different load than the IMS, but the crank has more than triple the number of bearings to carry that load.

While I've never rebuilt a Pcar engine, I've rebuilt the engines of a few others, both air and water cooled. I've also spent a lot of time chasing cooling issues on air cooled engines. My experience monitoring engine parameters tells me that its that there is more to this story. I don't see why an idling engine with the cooling system functioning properly would ever see oil temps of 290. That's auto crossing on a hot day oil temp, not ticking over at 600 rpm oil temp...