Yet another IMS "solution"

[BoxsterSteve]

Shad,
It would seem that extreme conditions that don't even exist in the real world were created on purpose to torture the IMSS during testing.
By surviving such torture, the product demonstrates its robustness.
Ingenious and simple all in one.

Originally Posted by shadrach74

Hi jake,
A few questions:

1) why would an idling engine "fry" at 5 psi and 290df?

2) Why would an idling engine have an oil temp in excess of 290df?

I understand that 5psi and 290df is sub optimal, but these parameters theoretically provide better lubrication then the engine gets for the first 10 minutes of running after start up on a cold morning.

Also, why would your bearing survive while the rest "fry"? I understand the crank is under a different load than the IMS, but the crank has more than triple the number of bearings to carry that load.

While I've never rebuilt a Pcar engine, I've rebuilt the engines of a few others, both air and water cooled. I've also spent a lot of time chasing cooling issues on air cooled engines. My experience monitoring engine parameters tells me that its that there is more to this story. I don't see why an idling engine with the cooling system functioning properly would ever see oil temps of 290. That's auto crossing on a hot day oil temp, not ticking over at 600 rpm oil temp...

[Jake Raby]

1) why would an idling engine "fry" at 5 psi and 290df?

This engine, by design has the highest loads on the valve train at idle. Internally lubricated components that are only cooled and lubricated by the engine's oil need a constant flow of that oil to provide full film lubrication and to keep them at a sane temperature.

Low speeds have proven to kill these engines more than anything else in my research.

2) Why would an idling engine have an oil temp in excess of 290df?

-Because the engine is most inefficient at idle speed
-Because the engine's coolant temps were 250F sustained (little volume of coolant circulation through the radiators at idle)
-Because this test was carried over over a week with the highest temperatures ever recorded at the test location, where temps were 100-108F for a solid week and the "low" temperatures at night stayed in the mid 80s.
-Because the engine ran night and day without being shut down at all.
-Because the oil was having to soak up so much heat from the severely "heat soaked" engine that never was given a chance to cool down

I understand that 5psi and 290df is sub optimal, but these parameters theoretically provide better lubrication then the engine gets for the first 10 minutes of running after start up on a cold morning.

But not when sustained over 170+ hours. Cold start development was the absolute biggest concern that we had and the issue was never experienced. Not once, not ever and thats even when applying a test engine in Chicago over the winter where cold start temps well below zero are common. DLC utilization provides even more resistance to start up wear. The benefits of materials and tolerances applied don't stop there.

During development we used check valves, oil pressure senders in line, residual pressure valves and etc to ensure there were no issues. What we learned was the unique location where we pull oil from IS THE VERY FIRST part of the oil system to receive primary oil pressure. With multiple oil sending units we have proven time and time again that the IMS Solution plain bearing receives oil pressure before even the main bearings within the engine. That is why the adaptor that we have developed as part of the arrangement that provides JUST FILTERED oil to the IMS Solution is part of the patent for the entire device. We robbed oil from many other regions within the engine and we learned the pros and cons of each and trust me, there are HUGE trade offs if oil is robbed from certain regions. With those test we didn't see issues with the IMS Solution, we saw big issues with other aspects of the engine. I'll let others find out what those things are on their own, just like we did. Unfortunately it appears that customers are going to find those issues before anyone else~.

Also, why would your bearing survive while the rest "fry"? I understand the crank is under a different load than the IMS, but the crank has more than triple the number of bearings to carry that load.

That engine didn't fail. We took it apart at least 5 times during the IMSS development and after the idle test we found that all the main bearings were showing wear through the dermis and epidermis layers of materials. The bearing clearances were opened by 15% due to wear from that test alone. The IMS Solution journal bearing saw a wear measurement after that test of less than 1/4 that amount. The difference was so small that it was only measurable in one part of the journal that was less than 1/6 the diameter of the journal. This test proved conclusively that even when subjected to the highest temperature, heaviest load and least amount of operation oil pressure that the IMS Solution bearing showed LESS wear than the main and rod bearings within the same engine, being subject to the same horrific operating conditions. Diamond Like Carbon (casidiam) processes proved to eliminate even that small amount of wear that ONLY existed when idling for over 100 hours sustained. For that study we even used filtered and non-filtered oil and a teardown before and after to illustrate the measurable differences.

Life for a journal bearing does not get any worse than low oil pressure (lack of hydrodynamic full film lubrication) heavy load (idle speed) that promotes oil shear and hot oil (lacking film strength) after so many hours of heat soaked operation.

While I've never rebuilt a Pcar engine, I've rebuilt the engines of a few others, both air and water cooled. I've also spent a lot of time chasing cooling issues on air cooled engines.

I could tell from your questions that you lacked direct experience, and complete understanding of the M96 platform.

My experience monitoring engine parameters tells me that its that there is more to this story. I don't see why an idling engine with the cooling system functioning properly would ever see oil temps of 290.

This proves more than you do not have interface with the M96. It is common for oil temps within the M96 engine to see normal operation at 230-250F in a bone stock engine, on the street.

That's auto crossing on a hot day oil temp, not ticking over at 600 rpm oil temp...

No, autocrossing is drag racing through cones for a couple of minutes. Doing this with an M96 engine will generally lead to COOLER oil temps than we see on the street since the higher RPM promotes oil circulation, coolant system circulation and full film lubrication.

A car sitting idle in the middle of July in Georgia in a year when we have record high temps leads to high oil temps. We had to set up a water sprinkler on the radiators to circulate cold water on them just to keep the coolant temps at 250 without the engine failing. It ran night and day over and over again. I totally expected to come in one morning and find the car burned to the ground and thats why we parked it all by it's lonesome in the middle of a field next to the facility. The car used previously belonged to a 986forum.com member.

The bottom line is, I know this product. I invented it and I developed it to be the heart of the engines that assume my name when they leave my facility. I assume nothing and quantify everything, because one test is worth 1,000 opinions. These are the reasons that the IMS Solution has taken years to develop.

The funny thing is, generally people who have never touched these engines feel their way is the best. Thats why when attendees fill my classrooms for an M96 period of instruction, the very first thing I tell them is to forget EVERYTHING they know about any other engine. Until they do that all the prior experience is just a bad habit, that will inhibit their ability to become proficient with the understanding of the M96 platform.

[Perfectlap]

Note to self. Drive car at high RPMs.

[kashmir]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Note to self. Drive car at high RPMs.

I drive my car daily at high RPM and I think it is what keeping it going. The old IMS has been leaking clean oil out of it for two months now. I take my car to Red line once everyday. I drive it like a Porsche.

[Jake Raby]

If my boxster blows tonight I will ship it to Jake for a much bigger engine.

Not just bigger, but much more efficient and without any ball bearings inside of it!

[Jake Raby]

My primary issue with "The IMS solution" is that replacing the ball bearing with a plain bearing may have unintended side-effects.

No, This is why it has taken years to develop. The technology is not new, My 300,000 mile Carrera shares the technology along with every Mezger powered 911 on the road.

I suspect that we will find out what the new failure modes of "The IMS Solution" are in a few years when the first ones start to fail.

Speculation thats totally off base.

There is nothing to fail. If the unit ever begins to wear the engine just picks up a noise that may exist for a very long period of time. The unit does not incorporate components that create collateral damages. Any wear materials that would be generated are non-ferromagnetic and not hardened tool steel like races and balls found in the ball bearings that do so much damage.

In testing we have forced units to fail and we know what occurs. I have documentation of these and on one occasion I cost myself 4,400.00 in less than one minute when we forced an engine to fail at 7,200 RPM. We utilized our special puller to extract the failed Solution and replaced it without engine disassembly and testing continued with no ill-effects.

We have even purposely contaminated the oil supply to the IMSS to know what occurs.

Been there, done that and have the experience, documentation and pictures to prove it. We have put the IMS Solution up against every challenge possible during development because developing components and manufacturing solutions are exactly what we do.

Idling a car for a long time is an interesting but it is not a true test of the known-failure conditions. For example, it is known that unlubricated startup is one of the most stressful times for a bearing (and double that concern for a plain bearing).

Did you fail to read that we cold started an engine 5,200 cycles and found wear to be immeasurable? Cold start has been our#1 concern since day one, but cold start doesn't inhibit the opposite end of the IMS that is ALSO A PLAIN BEARING from being one of the only portions of the M96 engine that we've never seen wear or break. Thats right, the opposite end of the IMS is supported by a plain bearing on every M96/ M97 engine ever built and it was NEVER the focus of a revision. If a plain bearing supported IMS was a problem the opposite end of the IMS would see failures, but thats simply not the case, because it simply isn't an issue.

This wasn't something that was dreamed up over night, the IMS Solution was "invented" the very first time that I disassembled an M96 engine. Why? Because a ball bearing in that position has never made any sense to me. Remove the ball bearing and remove the failure- Period.

Like I said, I invented this for my engines and thats the only reason. If another unit is never sold outside my engines I really could care less, because that means that we are the only company in the world that produces these engines that don't have to worry about a ball bearing killing the engine that has our name on it. I had to be "convinced" to allow these units to be sold outside my engine program, which is why we have worked so hard to patent the technology and have taken all the necessary steps to do so, including working in total secrecy for years.

[schoir]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

...Remove the ball bearing and remove the failure- Period.
...

Notwithstanding the fact this statement already constitutes a valid, enforceable guarantee, why would this not come with a written iron-clad guarantee against any failure of the IMS bearing?

A written guarantee would instill a lot more confidence than the claims of testing ad nauseam.

Keep in mind that guarantees, even those of proven products, routinely exclude negligence, lack of proper maintenance, damage from other causes, etc., and those reputable companies manage to function perfectly well in the marketplace.

Regards, Maurice.

[Joe B]

OK, so when do you think the IMS Solution will be available for the 3rd generation, larger IMSB?

[Sanford_yee]

Jake - when can you post your test results and documentation to provide evidence so we can all move on and agree your solution is the best? Please don't tell me it's "proprietary". Flame away....

[Jake Raby]

why would this not come with a written iron-clad guarantee against any failure of the IMS bearing?

Because here in the real world we know that collateral damage from other failures can easily kill the IMS Solution and it will never be conclusive when something fails. Nothing we sell has fine print associated with it and I refuse to sell people any product based on some shiny paper and a glorious warranty. I would rather fewer people buy our components for the right reasons, rather than selling them on a piece of paper and a promise. Its kind of like Unicorns and Rainbows covered with glitter, just like the rest of the modern world where over promising and under delivery is typical. I learned long ago that if I have to convince someone of something that they are not the type of purchaser that will appreciate what we create.

Remember, all I deal with are broken engines, nothing comes here healthy and its never a best case scenario. The Solution or any other device can be taken out by another device and then we have to prove that didn't occur- I don't have time for that.

That said, this thread was not started on the topic of the IMS Solution. Its unfair to the sellers of the "other" product to go off on such a wild tangent. They didn't do that to the threads that were started about our IMS Solution, so its not fair to do it to them.

Lots of good info in this thread either way. Everyone here should be glad that ANY option exists, people seem to forget that there was a time prior to my development of the IMS Bearing extraction devices when IMS bearings were said to be "non-removable" and if the bearing just started to fail the engine needed replacement. The fact that we can have these arguments about options is just a big pat on the back to me considering I built the first extraction device for 12 bucks and some scrap pieces from my machine shop. I should have patented it- biggest mistake I ever made.

Its been a good thread and I am leaving on a positive note.

[mikefocke]

Either? Jake's solution has a cost associated with it.

[Jake Raby]

When do you think the IMS SOLUTION will be available for the 06 thru 08 late design IMSB.

It already is, but only for installation here at our facility. While the fitment requires full engine disassembly, thats nothing at our level. We can turn the engine around in 3 days start to finish.