"...Not gonna go an faster in this car without taking out your wallet..."

[steved0x]

Agree with thstone, day 1 that instructor couldn't help you go faster without breaking out the wallet, but on day 2 that instructor had new things to help you.

At my home track I was sure that the car was holding me back, i was passing every other Boxster, caymans, 911s etc. A pro coach drove my car that day and was 5!!!! seconds faster (on a 2 mile course). Since then (Feb 2017) i have chiseled away 3 of those seconds, and still working on the rest. Have tweaked my setup, but no major changes. But I'm now doing things with the car, weight transfer, rotation, etc things i had only read about and thought i was already doing but was not. I can't to see what my next learning will be

I would recommend GT3 front control arms (well that is a wallet buster ) and around 15-20mm of shims, at stock height that will get you to around -2.5 camber in the front, max your back neg camber at around -1.9, your front will grip better, better tire wear, and with 0 toe in front and .08 degree of toe in per side in back, you won't have excessive inner tire wear even with that camber. If you are not already, go to a 225/45/17 in front vs the stock 205/50/17.

Then drive the wheels off like you have been doing and have fun!!!

[BrantyB]

Originally Posted by steved0x

I would recommend GT3 front control arms (well that is a wallet buster ) and around 15-20mm of shims, at stock height that will get you to around -2.5 camber in the front, max your back neg camber at around -1.9, your front will grip better, better tire wear, and with 0 toe in front and .08 degree of toe in per side in back, you won't have excessive inner tire wear even with that camber. If you are not already, go to a 225/45/17 in front vs the stock 205/50/17.

Then drive the wheels off like you have been doing and have fun!!!

To me, that's all that these cars need.

[maytag]

Hey y'all! Thanks for this great discussion!

Originally Posted by steved0x

Agree with thstone, day 1 that instructor couldn't help you go faster without breaking out the wallet, but on day 2 that instructor had new things to help you.

You've all made some really, really good points. I may not have emphasized it enough in y original post, but I mentioned, and absolutely KNOW that there's still plenty of learning curve. LOTS of things to learn, and muscle-memories to develop.

Originally Posted by thstone

First, you need to know how good a track driver you really are and the only way to know that is to compare lap times with others in similar cars.

This might mean going back and looking up the best times that were posted in the past for your class at the tracks that you visit.

I'm struggling to find any times posted for unmodified Boxsters at this (or any other) tracks. Comparing myself to other unmodified or lightly-modified boxsters, cayman's, 996's, etc etc at the events I've been to: yeah..... I'm pretty fast, comparatively. But that obviously doesn't tell the story. The large disparity in laptimes among those cars at those events actually PROVES that the data isn't reliable. However: comparing my times to spec boxsters isn't really useful either, unless I'm using it to prove the point that it's time to make modifications, hehe.

Originally Posted by MaxD

For starters - you need to get to a consistent reliable platform.

It would help if you gave us your approximate winter/short term budget for car mods.

Front camber, springs/shock and tires would be my first priority. Then real data, Harry's is great but often optimistic.

You should have asked me for a ride along or a ride in my lowly "spec". The IRPCA's primary interest is keeping you "on" the track and in control. Going faster is not really a curriculum priority and many instructors don't race or do TT's. Did either of them ask you about your goals for the event?

I also instruct for NASA so grab me at the next event.

Max's post gets a lot of weight with me, because he was THERE... so his hand is hovering over the Bull-$h!t button.... haha.
What Max is getting at is this: When I showed-up on Sunday at registration, I made the joke with my new friends there, that I finally made it to the 2nd day of an event! haha. Now, this is a mild exaggeration, but born from truth: I've had a number of mechanical failures this year, some more serious than others. My 2nd day this time was ALSO threatened by tire-wear (which was ABSOLUTELY within my control to avoid, but I didn't know last week what I know this week...) There's still a curve there as well, that Max has correctly identified.

Max, I really SHOULD have come found you. it didn't occur to me, when we were chatting. Partly because you're so busy trying to make sure guys like me keep having this much fun, hehe.
You're right that the instructors don't always have the same intent. My instructor on Saturday was Mike fchaba872345387g. (Yeah... I don't know his last name. Short, lots of mustache, probably mid-60's, races porsches) Mike was clearly ont he same page as I was, and was helping me go faster. Scott, on the other hand, on Sunday, yeah, I really don't know what his background or frame of reference was. He was STILL able to help me, but differently.

Tell me what you're using for data? I'd like to be as reliable as possible, so that it's as useful as possible. But I sure hate to throw down big bills on something not showing big dividends.
NEXT time, MaxD: you-n-me Pal. Show me the ways of the Boxster, yeah? :-) Maybe you need to take my car for a couple of laps and let's see what is left in it that I'm not accessing yet? Learn me up!

Originally Posted by steved0x

At my home track I was sure that the car was holding me back, i was passing every other Boxster, caymans, 911s etc. ....... But I'm now doing things with the car, weight transfer, rotation, etc things i had only read about and thought i was already doing but was not. I can't to see what my next learning will be

This describes me too. same-same. Though you're probably ahead of me on the curve.

Originally Posted by steved0x

I would recommend GT3 front control arms (well that is a wallet buster ) and around 15-20mm of shims, at stock height that will get you to around -2.5 camber in the front, max your back neg camber at around -1.9, your front will grip better, better tire wear, and with 0 toe in front and .08 degree of toe in per side in back, you won't have excessive inner tire wear even with that camber. If you are not already, go to a 225/45/17 in front vs the stock 205/50/17.

Then drive the wheels off like you have been doing and have fun!!!

Good info. YES, I'm already running the 225/45/17 in front. I'm running dedicated track wheels, and had federal 595 RS-RR tires on them. I'll probably change to the NT01's now, as suggested.

Finally:
MaxD, I don't know what the budget is yet.... it all depends on how bad I want it. This in turn dictates the level of creativity I'm willing to use to squirrel the cash away without my wife noticing. Tell me y'all don't know what I'm talking about?

[Gilles]

[QUOTE
I don't know what the budget is yet.... it all depends on how bad I want it. This in turn dictates the level of creativity I'm willing to use to squirrel the cash away without my wife noticing. Tell me y'all don't know what I'm talking about?[/QUOTE]

The guys at the office make fun of me when car parts arrive at out warehouse... :-)

[jsceash]

Here was what I did before I spent lots of money. I bought a lap timer data logger with video. In fact I've been through 3. Set up the track with 6-10 segments, run a session. Look at the composite time, the best time of each segment totaled. This should be your goal for that event. Compare laps what did you do on each best segment try to duplicate that. When you can run laps as fast as your composite update the car.

Nitto NT01 is a good place to start with maxed out chamber, and repeat the above process. After that buy coil overs WITH chamber plates, and max out you chamber. I ran -2.5 front and -2 rear. Your goal after each modification is to go back to the composite time and when you can run laps as fast as that time then you've probably maxed out the mod. What you will find is that you are going faster than all but the fastest unmodified cars.

Your next budget will hurt. GT3 arms and shims, adjustable drop links, adjustable tow links and slick tires. Currently running -2.5 to 3 front and -2.5 rear. Straight toe front and -.05 front Lowered to 3.75" front and 4' rear either 225 40 18 or 235 40 18 front and 265 35 18 or 275 35 18 rear. Preferred slick Hankook Z214 alternate BFGoodrich RS1. Preferred non-slick Nitto Nt01, next General FZ201.

[Topless]

Everyone has a different approach to this. If you want to have a dual-purpose street/track car that is capable, you really need some track capable tires and a setup to maximize your contact patch and avoid grinding off the shoulders like you are doing now.

After 10 years running a 986 in DE/TT this is what I recommend:

- M030 suspension or equivalent. If you can't get that, just get stiffer springs that lower the car 20mm.

- GT3 A-arms or equivalent. This is by far the best way to get more negative camber in the front to complete your setup. There are a dozen other shade-tree methods to get negative camber but your setup shop will thank you if you just get the GT3 arms.

- A pro corner balance and alignment by a respected race-prep shop in your area. It costs $450 around here and is worth every penny.

- NT-01 tires or equivalent. They are easy to drive fast, are good to the last cord, and will typically go 8-10 track days if you rotate them for even wear.

- Harrys Laptimer or equivalent app with hi res GPS receiver. This will be your personal coach to give you quick comparisons between your last lap, best lap, or theoretical best lap.

- Brake pads that will hold up to track temps. I favor ST-43 due to their very high heat tolerance and excellent modulation. Others like Pagid or Performance Friction. I think brand is less important than finding a good hi temp pad that compliments your tire choice and driving style.

With these things you will have a very track capable car that won't beat you up on the street. If you add seats, harnesses, HANS, roll cage, fire suppression it will be safer but damn unfriendly on the street. Tough call. I have gone both ways and my current car has a stock interior.

Now it's time to look up track records for similar car at the local PCA and NASA websites. If you don't know how to find them, ask your CDI at the next event. Track records give you a very good baseline and a goal to work towards as you develop your driving skills. If you are 1/2 second off the track record in a similar car, it might be the car. If you are 5 seconds off the track record, it's you.

PCA is hosting an intro to data analysis class on Oct. 14 at WSIR with a DE/AX the following day to apply what you have learned. Get your car sorted and come hang with us for the weekend. This will be a great way to develop your skills and have a method to evaluate each track day moving forward.

http://pcagpx.motorsportreg.com/

Good hunting and as always, YMMV

[maytag]

Originally Posted by Topless

Now it's time to look up track records for similar car at the local PCA and NASA websites. ...... If you are 1/2 second off the track record in a similar car, it might be the car. If you are 5 seconds off the track record, it's you.

We're lucky that SteD0x did it for us already, in a post yesterday:

Originally Posted by steved0x

Looks like a 2:18.252 set last year, the lap you shared in the other thread was a 2:22.54, which is (in seconds) 138.252/142.54=97% so by my metrics that is smoking fast!

That's a SPB record, so we can assume a fully-prepared car. Are you suggesting (topless) that I should be able to get within 1/2 second of this record in my 147k mile car without modifications? to me, that seems ambitious. But if you've seen that be the case, I'm all ears. Personally, I think there's still maybe 2 seconds I can find by smoothing some things out. But I don't think there's 4 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong?

Frankly, if you're telling me it's possible to get within a 1/2 second of the lap record without spending $30k to build a SPB, then that would become the MOST EXPENSIVE half-Second in the HISTORY of half-seconds. haha

Originally Posted by The Radium King

understand negative camber. you want lots of it at the track. you can get negative camber by (a) pulling in the strut tops, .... you can get over -1 just in the factory strut tower slots. notch them with a dremmel to get more. get camber plates to get in the -3 neck of the woods ..... for some reason, the cheaper coilovers come with camber plates, while the more expensive do not. i am on $1300 ksport kontrol pros and have had zero problems over 5 hard years of living, can get -3 up front with the built-in camber plates, and have rebound adjustability to move back and forth from street to track. ..... this way you can get coilovers (and ability to corner balance - good good good) and camber adjustment for the cost of just lcas otherwise.

my advice - get as much camber in the front as you can get stock - ..... get good tires - nittos - a..... do the sways - these will dramatically help with roll and maintaining contact patch, ..... do the brakes (motul rbf600, stainless lines, pagid yellow pads, gt3 cooling ducts). do reliability mods (oiling, 2nd gear, water pump, underdrive pully, etc.).

spend a year on that and you will be able to make a more informed decision on the bigger ticket items like coilovers and control arms (specifically, you'll have a better idea of whether you are building a track or compromise setup).

This advice is speaking to me this afternoon, along with some of the others here. maybe because it includes some of the direction I've been going anyway: RBF600, GT3 Cooling ducts, water pump & t-stat, UDP, etc etc.

I'm still seeing conflicting opinions on square vs staggered.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by maytag

We're lucky that SteD0x did it for us already, in a post yesterday:



That's a SPB record, so we can assume a fully-prepared car. Are you suggesting (topless) that I should be able to get within 1/2 second of this record in my 147k mile car without modifications? to me, that seems ambitious. But if you've seen that be the case, I'm all ears. Personally, I think there's still maybe 2 seconds I can find by smoothing some things out. But I don't think there's 4 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong?

Frankly, if you're telling me it's possible to get within a 1/2 second of the lap record without spending $30k to build a SPB, then that would become the MOST EXPENSIVE half-Second in the HISTORY of half-seconds. haha



This advice is speaking to me this afternoon, along with some of the others here. maybe because it includes some of the direction I've been going anyway: RBF600, GT3 Cooling ducts, water pump & t-stat, UDP, etc etc.

I'm still seeing conflicting opinions on square vs staggered.

In "similar cars" Yes you can. That means similar wt/hp, tires, and setup. An 03 Box S should be very close on the same tires and a decent setup with some camber in the front. On a long track where you can stretch your legs the 03 should be faster with higher hp. On a tight track with a lot of corners the SPB will have the edge due to better wt/grip. Right now you not in a similar car. You are camber-challenged and leaving a lot of time on the table while shredding the shoulders of your tires. Using ALL of your contact patch needs to be priority one IMO.

My base Cayman is 261 hp and on the same tires runs well with the SPB guys at Fontana, Laguna Seca, and Buttonwillow. They will get me at Chuckwalla and Streets due to tighter tracks and lighter weight. An 03 Box S and 09 Base Cayman turn very similar laps on the same tires and setup so a very good comparison.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/zemohc1ti88s


I also run the exact same setup street or track. I have alignment checked and corner balanced annually and that is it. Nice even tire wear with no drivability issues at all. I don't know why you would change it unless you were running extreme camber/toe settings.


For reference, the POC historical track record for BSR (SPBOX) at AAA Speedway is Nathan Johnson at 1:55.5 on Toyo RR 40TW tires. Last April I ran a 1:55.2 on RE71r street tires. Boxster Spec track records are well within our reach once we use all of the contact patch.

[MaxD]

Here is a better source of lap records for the various track configurations at UMC. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you the make and model of car in the NASA classes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsONhXO4OCIaT0Q4ecpQk3v4pVk6-_J2vR5fvb86EDQ/edit#gid=165366706[

Mark's record is from last years PCA club race and he was the only Spec Boxster. Other specs have run in GT4 past years. One big thing missing from the ClubRace site is what configuration was run for the time.

I have TTC records in my base Boxster from when the class existed. Adam Heller's GTS2 times are from an S racecar, as are Bill Noblitt's PTB times.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by MaxD

Here is a better source of lap records for the various track configurations at UMC. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you the make and model of car in the NASA classes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsONhXO4OCIaT0Q4ecpQk3v4pVk6-_J2vR5fvb86EDQ/edit#gid=165366706[

Mark's record is from last years PCA club race and he was the only Spec Boxster. Other specs have run in GT4 past years. One big thing missing from the ClubRace site is what configuration was run for the time.

I have TTC records in my base Boxster from when the class existed. Adam Heller's GTS2 times are from an S racecar, as are Bill Noblitt's PTB times.

This great, Max!
So what I'm seeing then, is a LARGE disparity, between SPB (2:19.022) vs the two S racecars you described, GTS2 (2:12.341) and PTB (2:09.677)

I don't know which of those times I'd use as a gauge to compare my own largely-unmodified 'S' to. If I'm comparing my 2:22 to the SPB 2:19, I'm seeing it. If I'm comparing to the 2:12 or 2:09, then I'm gonna throw-in the towel right now.... 'cuz there ain't now way in HELL that -I- (me) can get within a stone's throw of those times with the car I'm driving now, as it is. If somebody else CAN, then yeah.... I'm not so good at this after all, huh? And all 4 of the instructors who've ridden with me this year have simply been blowing up my skirt....

That's a little demoralizing.