Race suspension alignment

[Topless]

RR of the car looks bent to me and he wasn't able to get the toe where he wanted it. With that much camber the car should tend to toe out right?

[LAP1DOUG]

Originally Posted by Topless

RR of the car looks bent to me and he wasn't able to get the toe where he wanted it. With that much camber the car should tend to toe out right?

Topless is right for sure: with our suspension geometry, the more rear camber that you dial in, the more toe-out you get. This is due to the fact that the rear LCA is in front of the toe link so the more you move the LCA out, the more the wheel pivots outward toward tow out.

With after market adjustable rear toe links this should not be a problem at all as the adjustment range is huge. I have the Tarett locking plates in place of the eccentric adjusters on mine, with RSS rear toe links, and I can dial in whatever toe I want along with more negative camber than anyone would want.

All the true racing slicks I have ever run had very minimal sidewalls (and leaked air like a sieve), so I am guessing that they would want lots of negative camber, so that makes sense.

Sorry about the blunt part, but I've been called worse...

[993innc]

I can't imagine why he couldn't get toe, I have adjustable toe links and they are adjustable on both inside and outside of each arm so........we'll see what it feels like. If its wrong, we change it.

As for slicks leaking air, I don't believe I've ever had that issue. Been running Yok's for years with no issues.....

[rastta]

Originally Posted by 993innc

Well I'm not exactly sure how comparing a completely different car applies? I have been told here and by others, that the values need to be as close to -3 camber etc as I can get as a starting point to work from.
These values are maxed out as you see it. These aren't arbitrary values, they are all the car could give me for the parts I altered.

Alignments are alignments. I can show an alignment done on my S4 which has different values - BUT the point is the same - your values - whatever they may be for a specific car shouldn't vary side to side as much as they do. Whether it is toe or camber - unless you are setting your car up for a specific race track and have the knowledge that you should have different settings.

[993innc]

Originally Posted by rastta

Alignments are alignments. I can show an alignment done on my S4 which has different values - BUT the point is the same - your values - whatever they may be for a specific car shouldn't vary side to side as much as they do. Whether it is toe or camber - unless you are setting your car up for a specific race track and have the knowledge that you should have different settings.

No German car I've ever owned has been able to get exactly the same values when maxed out. You can get them while doing a general setup.....

[edc]

My set up on my old m030 was not as extreme as yours but was even to within 1 minute for for and camber across each axle. Yours looks unevenly set up that way by design is it a bit lazy?

[rastta]

Originally Posted by 993innc

No German car I've ever owned has been able to get exactly the same values when maxed out. You can get them while doing a general setup.....

Only time I've ever had a problem getting the same values was when I had it aligned at a shop who didn't know what they were doing.

Based upon this discussion - you've installed all the parts to allow for the maximum amount of adjustment - toe links and adjustable camber arms.

Not trying to argue with you - but with all that adjustment ability - there is no reason why you can't get the same values or at least much much closer than what you have with a competent alignment guy.

[993innc]

Originally Posted by rastta

Only time I've ever had a problem getting the same values was when I had it aligned at a shop who didn't know what they were doing.

Based upon this discussion - you've installed all the parts to allow for the maximum amount of adjustment - toe links and adjustable camber arms.

Not trying to argue with you - but with all that adjustment ability - there is no reason why you can't get the same values or at least much much closer than what you have with a competent alignment guy.

Admittedly he's not a pcar only alignment guy. And in his defense, I told him to maximize everything. He did what I told him to do. Now should he have said, hey these values aren't equal........? yeah and he may have, I don't recall.
In the end if it doesn't perform correctly, I'll get it corrected. No big deal.....
It's a lot better than it was

[rastta]

Originally Posted by 993innc

Admittedly he's not a pcar only alignment guy. And in his defense, I told him to maximize everything. He did what I told him to do. Now should he have said, hey these values aren't equal........? yeah and he may have, I don't recall.
In the end if it doesn't perform correctly, I'll get it corrected. No big deal.....
It's a lot better than it was

It's all good. Hopefully you won't have to pay a second time if it isn't good the first.

[993innc]

Well...................
Went to VIR this w/e (part of it anyway), have good and very bad news
Other than being a little darty, which could just be me not used to having next to no rubber in the front end suspension parts, the car handled like it was on rails! Having driven that track and others enough in my 993, I came to expect push, etc in certain corners and under hard conditions. The Box now has amazing characteristics, I just need to possibly have the alignment values tweaked for optimum performance. But to those who questioned the values in my print out, I couldn't get the rear end to step, virtually no push out front and all with PSM off, it was just glued to the track. The slicks wore even, in fact didn't even look scuffed..........just amazing.

The bad news, and I am beside myself pissed about it, is that with not even 500 track miles on the motor w/brand new LN bearing..........it is dead again! I think, in hind site, the noise and feel of what I thought was a possible wheel bearing going bad as I was out there running around, was indeed the IMS bearing going AGAIN!!!
So now I get to replace that water pumping POS again!! Needless to say, I'm not real fond of this car right now. My 993 gave me ZERO trouble in 5 years of track thrashing, and this F**King car can't do 500 miles

So now the Q of the D is, who's out there building motors for you track guys that won't rape me, but will freshen up a proper motor that will hold together? Yes I will be going back to the guy who did the previous work, but I don't expect much from that.

[MikenOH]

Originally Posted by 993innc

Well...................
Went to VIR this w/e (part of it anyway), have good and very bad news
Other than being a little darty, which could just be me not used to having next to no rubber in the front end suspension parts, the car handled like it was on rails! Having driven that track and others enough in my 993, I came to expect push, etc in certain corners and under hard conditions. The Box now has amazing characteristics, I just need to possibly have the alignment values tweaked for optimum performance. But to those who questioned the values in my print out, I couldn't get the rear end to step, virtually no push out front and all with PSM off, it was just glued to the track. The slicks wore even, in fact didn't even look scuffed..........just amazing.

The bad news, and I am beside myself pissed about it, is that with not even 500 track miles on the motor w/brand new LN bearing..........it is dead again! I think, in hind site, the noise and feel of what I thought was a possible wheel bearing going bad as I was out there running around, was indeed the IMS bearing going AGAIN!!!
So now I get to replace that water pumping POS again!! Needless to say, I'm not real fond of this car right now. My 993 gave me ZERO trouble in 5 years of track thrashing, and this F**King car can't do 500 miles

So now the Q of the D is, who's out there building motors for you track guys that won't rape me, but will freshen up a proper motor that will hold together? Yes I will be going back to the guy who did the previous work, but I don't expect much from that.

Besides, the new IMS, what had you done to the motor? Any oiling mods? chain tensioners?

[993innc]

Supposedly the motor was flushed, new IMSB, new a/o separator, water pump, under drive pulley. No mods, no tensioners.
What should have been done Mike?

[stephen wilson]

I was thinking the same thing, you may have oil starvation problems, a known problem when tracking these car on sticky tires. Do a search, there's plenty of threads.

[MikenOH]

Originally Posted by 993innc

Supposedly the motor was flushed, new IMSB, new a/o separator, water pump, under drive pulley. No mods, no tensioners.
What should have been done Mike?

There are more than a few oil system mods which have been extensively covered on the forum, like:
-Deeper sump
-996 swirl pots
-oil weight heavier than 0W-40
-external oil cooler
-Accusump(?) oiling system

Once you add sticky tires to the car, the oiling issue becomes a bigger deal on the M96 engine.
Besides this forum, check the Cayman registry and planet 9--both have lots of comments on this topic.

[993innc]

Originally Posted by MikenOH

There are more than a few oil system mods which have been extensively covered on the forum, like:
-Deeper sump
-996 swirl pots
-oil weight heavier than 0W-40
-external oil cooler
-Accusump(?) oiling system

Once you add sticky tires to the car, the oiling issue becomes a bigger deal on the M96 engine.
Besides this forum, check the Cayman registry and planet 9--both have lots of comments on this topic.

I've heard of the deeper pan
Don't know what a swirl pot is
I used LiquiMoly Mo2 10-40 as suggested by the wrench
I noticed the water temp never got over 190 so I can't imagine the oil got overly hot, wouldn't the water follow?

I guess I need to do much more research before hiring someone to do the next motor, clearly this guy under prepared me and the motor.

[thstone]

If you are interested, this is a good thread on oil starvation: Oil Starvation

[993innc]

So I ruined a perfectly good motor over a fricken $500 or less part!!!! Serious? Me and the wrench are going to have a nice discussion! If he won't stand behind his work, his a$$ will be in court! Guess it's what I get for trusting and not doing enough of my own due diligence.

Thanks for the link stone. Make perfect sense. The 993 is a sump system and is probably why it's such a good motor! Like I always say, people only learn if it hurts or costs them......this one is both for me

[Topless]

Ouch! Sorry for your loss. We had a 2.7L 987 Cayman with oiling issues this weekend at WSIR. Still waiting on the full diagnosis.

The m96/m97 motor was never really designed for motorsport so once you do major suspension and comp rubber, the snowball effect requires significant reliability mods to prep for motorsport track duty and keep things happy.

These are some of the recommended oiling/cooling/ power steering mods that keep these cars happy and reliable on the track. Don't expect your local shop to know this stuff unless they prep and offer track support for a lot of m96/m97 cars in active motorsport.

X51 pan
Accusump
underdrive pulley
S model oil cooler
electric power steering
3rd radiator

For reference: my car currently has 112k miles, 100+ track days, and 5 PCA TT Championships on the original motor. Fingers crossed!

[993innc]

Great thanks for the short list.
I have the under drive pulley (wrench knew enough to tell me that).
Don't have the other items although sounds like I need them
Water temps ran fine and I don't do a lot of summer running. My track events are usually spring and fall. Water this w/e never got over 190. Wrench was supposed to punch holes in the thermostat to allow for more flow before opening up (sort of like a thermo bypass).
I think I need oil gauges, that would have certainly tipped me off to something being up. I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge too that's not being used......my be time to put in service, along wit temps from a couple of locations. Had no idea these motors were so fragile, I'm spoiled with my 993 motor and five years of flogging with no issues and no mods needed for trouble free ass haulin'!
I appreciate your sympathy too Donations always accepted

[Topless]

I don't see super high water temps either but oil temps often get into 240F territory during a long session. Add hot thin oil, no motorsport pan baffle, and no oil scavenge pump in the RF head and you have a good chance for scored mains and rod knock.