Brake Pads for DE - Recommendations?

[iaincamp]

Brake Advice, please.

For the last 15 months, I've tried to attend every DE event from my regional PCA (CVR) in my mostly-stock '01 Boxster S. Some combination of increased ability/speed/harder braking, and the addition of Nitto 01 tires and M030 anti-sway bars has led to persistent brake fade, then spongy pedal feel, then total pedal-to-the-floor failure (if I persist), particularly at longer tracks like Watkins Glen. I'm using ATE Super Blue Brake Fluid, changed mid-August, newish Textar pads and OEM cross-drilled rotors, the fronts of which are due for replacement this winter.

As I understand it, my choices are:

a) change to Castrol SRF, for its higher boiling point
b) change my brake fluid before every event, or at minimum bleed 10 pumps worth from each cylinder to refresh the fluid
c) change my brake pads to performance pads. (I have had recommendations for both Pagid and Performance Friction pads. Pelican has a large array of performance pads, and widely varying prices; what's the sweet spot?)
d) all of the above.

I'd appreciate hearing from those with first-hand, real-world experience in this matter, thanks! I'm also curious about anyone who is using a cute but expensive little "brake radiator" called Cool Shim (Pelican).

Thanks!

[Topless]

You are wise to match your brake pads to your tire choice and driving ability.

Here is my setup for NT-01s that has been successful over 4 years x 20 track days/yr:

Raybestos ST-43 pads, custom cut from Porterfield.
Zimmerman OEM Rotors
Motul 600 fluid (bleed fronts before every weekend).
997GT3 brake cooling ducts.

Essentially no fade ever, excellent stopping power, front pads will last a full season, not the cheapest solution.

[pharaohjb]

While my Kumho Ecsta XS tires aren't as sticky as yours, I too have added the GT3 brake ducts to my '99, and use either fresh, or freshly bled Ate Blue brake fluid before each DE. Also, the past two DEs I've done, I've used EBC Yellowstuff brake pads, which seems to be a decent compromise between track performance and cost.

I experienced no fade whatsoever at Road America with this setup this past July. Temps were 90°F+ both days out there as well. But then, I'm not going as fast as you are, either.

Cheers,
Jason

[LAP1DOUG]

I am very happy with the Pagid RS-14 Black compound front and rear. They heat up quickly, and never fade in my experience.

I am using the ATE SuperBlue like you, and completley change the fluid for every DE, unless I have two events within a 2- 3 month period, then I'll just run the same fluid for those events.

I am using the GT2 brake "ducts" (really more of an air turning vane), which as I understand are a bit larger than the GT3 units.

You may want to check the discs regularly for cracks. They all crack after a couple of events, but throw away when cracks start going hole to hole.

[MaxD]

Additional data point from yet another NT-01 user. I have been using Pagid orange front and black rear. Fluid has been Motul MB600 for years in the Boxster and M3 but just started using Castrol SRF. No fade whatsoever. At my local track MMP in any configuration I have problems getting the brakes hot enough to be effective.

I would ditch the Texstar pads and buy a track pad from Pagid, PFC or Hawk. If the car still does street duty you can swap pads at the track or just get used to sounding like a bus when braking to a stop light.

One thing to consider - Porsche is not known for ineffective brakes, even in stock form. Could you be on the brakes longer than required, leading to the fade. Even with an S you shouldn't use your brakes ... much.

[thstone]

MaxD got it right...

This secret was passed on to me by the Honorable Mr. Brad Roberts when he told me: "You're fast, but you brake way too much.".

What he meant was to work on maintaining momentum. It is easy (too easy) to over-brake in the Boxster. Ask yourself - are you really at the limit on corner entry? If not, then you're braking too much.

One time when I had a professional instructor in my car with me, he asked why I was tapping the brakes before a corner? I said to set the front tires before turn in. He said, stop it - you're no where near the true limit. And we worked on going 1 mph faster into that turn each lap until the car was sliding on entry. Then we worked on a smoother entry and increased it another 1 mph. And so on.

Then we worked on maintaining the limit in mid-corner and then on corner exit. By the end of the day, I took 5 seconds off my lap time.

Work on braking just enough and carrying more speed through all parts of the corner (entry, middle, and exit). Alternatively, go in a little too fast and let the tires scrub off some speed (use that inherrent understeer to some benefit for a change!). Your lap times will plumment and the brakes will last much longer.

By the way, I change brake fluid once a year and never have a problem.

[jsceash]

Originally Posted by iaincamp

Brake Advice, please.

For the last 15 months, I've tried to attend every DE event from my regional PCA (CVR) in my mostly-stock '01 Boxster S. Some combination of increased ability/speed/harder braking, and the addition of Nitto 01 tires and M030 anti-sway bars has led to persistent brake fade, then spongy pedal feel, then total pedal-to-the-floor failure (if I persist), particularly at longer tracks like Watkins Glen. I'm using ATE Super Blue Brake Fluid, changed mid-August, newish Textar pads and OEM cross-drilled rotors, the fronts of which are due for replacement this winter.

I'm running Watkins Glenn about 4 weekends a year
Boxster S front rotors and calipers
EBC Yellow stuff Pad
Nitto NT01 Tires
Zimmerman Drill rotors
Ate Super Blue Fluid
997 GT3 cooling ducts

My last track day eight lap avergae 2;22.4
I'm not having any brake fade

[iaincamp]

Thanks to everyone for the advice; its been very helpful.

When I get to the garage, tomorrow morning, I'll install new Zimmerman cross-drilled rotors (both front and rear originals were nearing min spec) and – thanks to super-knowledgable help from Speed Freaks LLC – new Performance Friction 0776.11.17.44 front and 0738.08.16.44 rear pads. (And yes, I know about proper bedding.) I'll put in new ATE Super Blue (I stocked up) and install GT3 ducts (why are GT2s 10x more $?!?). I have the PCA CVR (CT) rally on Sunday and a track day at Limerock the following week, so I'll let you know how it goes...or, more precisely, slows down!

BTW: I'm pretty sure that I am not over-braking; I've had very experienced PCA DE instructors/serious racers with me at every turn, and I'm aware of the cars limits and I'm quick in my group. I do think there was a time when I allowed the NT-01s to get too warm and slippery, which invoked the ABS, which further over-heated the brakes, but that's easy to avoid with proper attention to tire pressures.

[MaxD]

iaincamp - That sounds like a good plan. Report back after your Limerock day.

[iaincamp]

The photo shows the condition of my rotors with cooling holes occluded with a combination of brake dust and rust(?). My Performance Friction pads didn't show up in time for the rally, so I spent a chunk of my morning poking a screw driver through each of the 600+ holes and vacuuming up the debris. With fresh Textar pads on the back, and fresh brake fluid, I had no problems meeting the modest braking needs of the rally.

[iaincamp]

For anyone out there not yet using a Brake Bleeder Bottle, it wins my personal recommendation for the next Nobel Prize. No more cajoling neighbors or nephews into pumping your brakes! No more air bubbles! The magnet clamps it firmly to the wheel hub or rotor, and you can pump the brake pedal 30-40 times before getting out to refill the brake fluid reservoir. I got mine "free" from Stable Energies after making yet another large purchase, but they seem to cost about $12-20 online. It really does make bleeding one's own brakes one of the easiest tasks one can perform.

[timothy]

Combine the bottle with a Motive Power Bleeder and you'll be in brake bleeding heaven. Imagine a world of no more pumping. Just open the bleed valve, wait, and close.