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Old 02-09-2021, 09:24 AM   #1
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Valuation help - 2002 Boxster S

Hello!

First time poster here, long time 951 owner! Hoping I can get some guidance on a potential purchase that's come my way...

A friend reached out to me last night. His father is selling his 2002 Boxster S. Letting it go due to age. Your classic older guy who loves and has babied it. I was contacted for first refusal since he knows I'm into P-cars.

67k miles.
He's the second owner.
Fairly standard/inoffensive color combo (arctic/black).
Hard top.
Second set of winter tires/rims (but not winter driven apparently).
Clutch/RMS/IMS bearing replaced 5k miles ago.
Records available.
Not sure on options.
Cosmetic condition I'm lead to believe is great, but I've not seen it.

On paper seems like a bit of a no-brainer, I'm "buying the seller" (who I can trust) and seems to be happening for a reason. Getting those good vibes.

My heart is screaming to get it done, but my head is slowing me down for some research.

Now, he has a price in mind which is "or best offer" and has already indicated he's very negotiable, and would prefer an enthusiast like me to get it rather than see it get trashed. Prices seem a little all over the map when looking at classifieds.

What would you say is a fair price for a 986 like this? Assuming it all checks out, no mechanical work needed, and in good shape (perhaps a couple of dings and scratches). Closest I saw on here was this one for US$10k, but don't know if that was in the ballpark.

As coincidence would have it, I was looking at getting a 981 GTS later this year (and selling my 951), but with a 986 I can keep both and wait for the crazy used prices of 981s to settle down a bit in the next year or two and have some fun in the meantime.

I wasn't even considering this approach but if the price is right and it feels good, why not?

Any guidance appreciated!

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Old 02-10-2021, 09:33 AM   #2
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$10K seems low to me if the condition, mileage and records are as you were told. Prices seem to be in the 7K-15K range. If it were mine, I would price it at 14-15 and hold out for 12-13K. I doubt he is in any hurry unless he really needs the money. The right buyer will come along.
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Old 02-10-2021, 11:58 AM   #3
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Sounds like a car everyone else here is looking for. Easily worth $12k. If it were on BaT, it would bring close to $15k, IMO. This is assuming he has documentation for the clutch/RMS/IMSB service.

The hard top alone is worth at least $1500.

I am speaking in US dollars.
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Old 02-10-2021, 05:56 PM   #4
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Agree with above. 2 yrs ago I bought my 2000base with 27k for $12k and I ran like I stole it. S model should pull an extra grand, 2 years younger would be +$1-2k, and then drop $500-$1000 per 10k miles (that's how I judged prices when looking). If he's friendly I'm sure you can settle somewhere between $10-14k. Make sure you drive it (hard) before buying to pick up on things that will likely need replacing if they've not yet been done (motor and tranny mount, control arms, track arms, struts, etc.). lastly, remember that ims failure is more likely (supposedly) in garage queens. You may want to factor that expense into your negotiations - $2-3k for a good shop, $700+all day labor if you do it yourself.

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Old 02-10-2021, 06:19 PM   #5
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Does the comp have that $1500 hardtop? What kind of soft-top does it have?

Have you a way to get the winter tires/rims home? S rims/tires aren't small. Took the back of an SUV to get them 200 miles home and take old blankets, towels, cardboard to put between them

What IMS? One you want?

Pricing is local and buying in CA in winter is the time to do it. Bought my second with 6" of the white stuff on the ground.

Certainly sounds good. Since it is a friend's father, I'd be prepared to propose a price and show how I arrived at it. Just did that and got a good buyer at my list and we were both happy.
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Old 02-13-2021, 05:29 AM   #6
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I paid $14K for my 2001 Boxster S @ 2 years ago.

New short block engine, 140,000 kms, new top, new tires and a bunch of engine maintenance related stuff done. (AOS, coils, etc, etc.)

Not many are currently listed on Kijiji as of late, if they are I'd avoid them as they've been on there a long while - if you catch my drift.

Welcome to a fellow Canuck!
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Old 02-13-2021, 05:32 AM   #7
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PS...if you decide to sell the hardtop when you buy it...let me know!
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Old 02-13-2021, 06:08 PM   #8
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Thanks everyone for your time and advice! Took a look yesterday... will report after some quick responses to specific questions/points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ike84 View Post
Make sure you drive it (hard) before buying to pick up on things that will likely need replacing if they've not yet been done (motor and tranny mount, control arms, track arms, struts, etc.)
Sadly due to snow here, I couldn't drive it hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefocke View Post
What kind of soft-top does it have?

Have you a way to get the winter tires/rims home? S rims/tires aren't small. Took the back of an SUV to get them 200 miles home and take old blankets, towels, cardboard to put between them

What IMS? One you want?
Soft top is black, plastic window. I can get the second set of wheels home no bother. IMSB is LN Engineering, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seal1968 View Post
PS...if you decide to sell the hardtop when you buy it...let me know!
Hello! Don't think I'll be selling but will bear than in mind

On to my viewing.

Exterior is fine. Couple of dings and chips, but par for its age, nothing terrible and no accident damage. Dirty and dusty but that's no obstacle.

Couldn't find any fault with interior - no worn leather. Only minor issue is display on the CD220 has seen better days. Chip or two on the plastic handles.

Rims on the car are perfect, apparently the second set of rims/tires is garbage.
Tires on the car are 10yo, so would want to factor replacing those into a negotiation.

Concerns:

- The soft top made a juddering noise and wouldn't go "all the way" (stopped short by 1/2in or so) up or down without some manual encouragement. Could just be in need of some lube in the mechanism due to lack of use, or cold ambient temp, or the fact the roof is stored closed while the hard top is on.
That said, could be cables or motors. Typical P-car conundrum; could be a quick $10/15min fix, or could run into hundreds. And I have no idea which.

- Exhaust rattle first few mins running. I believe this is heat shield, but research says there's a chance the cat could be dismantling itself. Leaning towards former as it does go away quickly.

- CEL apparently comes on after the car has been parked outside in the rain with only the soft top, then clears once things dry out. Had a brief look online on this one, perhaps it needs drains cleared and some WD40/grease on connections, but - as with the top - could be something a lot more expensive.

- Apparently the suspension is fine, but after a long drive can make a grinding noise when hitting the lowered curb to go to driveway. Owner thinks could be bushings.


So in summary, not perfect as I was initially led to believe, but I see potential once cleaned up. Going to research more, talk to my mechanic and see if pricing works out. It's in the ballpark of what's been mentioned above - but I'm not getting a sense of much wiggle room to take the sting out of potential costs for repairs if needed.
If the issues above were easily solved I think it would be an easy decision, but crossing your fingers and hoping things won't be costly isn't really a strategy with Porsches.

I'll keep the thread updated with how it goes. Thanks again for the input
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Old 02-14-2021, 06:29 AM   #9
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What year is/was your 951?

I've had an 83 944 NA and an 88 944S previously...fun cars.

Always wanted an 86 951 to mod up with a Lindsey kit.

Good memories!
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:32 AM   #10
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Even in cold weather my convertible top runs strong. A bit "creaky" but never requires assistance. I would be prepared to replace the transmissions (worst case scenario)

Exhaust rattle is normal. It's the metal expanding/contracting as it heats up/cools down. It should last for 30 seconds or so after starting and after shutdown. It should sound like a crackle or tinkle.

CEL coming on after rain is concerning. Probably the most concerning thing you've said so far. What are the codes it's throwing? That will make the difference between digits in repair bill.

That grinding could be bushings, although that doesn't usually make a grinding noise. It's usually.more of a clunk. I'd be worried about worn struts you may be hitting the bump stops (just a guess here but that's what mine did before I replaced them). I would look at the bump stops directly and if they look worn then expect to replace all 4 struts. If you do this, you're looking at a complete suspension overhaul.

None of this in my mind would be a deal breaker but it completely depends on your cash flow and willingness to do repairs yourself. Parts aren't terribly expensive but labor can break your bank.

I'll be honest though, I would consider passing with so many unknowns. It's not terribly difficult to find a garage queen with half the miles and none of these issues, and it sounds to me like the guy isn't doing you any favors with the price he's asking. It may take 6 months, but it may be very much worth the wait - especially since none of is are able to enjoy the cars for what they are with this **************** weather were getting now.


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Old 02-15-2021, 06:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ike84 View Post
Even in cold weather my convertible top runs strong. A bit "creaky" but never requires assistance. I would be prepared to replace the transmissions (worst case scenario)

Exhaust rattle is normal. It's the metal expanding/contracting as it heats up/cools down. It should last for 30 seconds or so after starting and after shutdown. It should sound like a crackle or tinkle.

CEL coming on after rain is concerning. Probably the most concerning thing you've said so far. What are the codes it's throwing? That will make the difference between digits in repair bill.

That grinding could be bushings, although that doesn't usually make a grinding noise. It's usually.more of a clunk. I'd be worried about worn struts you may be hitting the bump stops (just a guess here but that's what mine did before I replaced them). I would look at the bump stops directly and if they look worn then expect to replace all 4 struts. If you do this, you're looking at a complete suspension overhaul.

None of this in my mind would be a deal breaker but it completely depends on your cash flow and willingness to do repairs yourself. Parts aren't terribly expensive but labor can break your bank.

I'll be honest though, I would consider passing with so many unknowns. It's not terribly difficult to find a garage queen with half the miles and none of these issues, and it sounds to me like the guy isn't doing you any favors with the price he's asking. It may take 6 months, but it may be very much worth the wait - especially since none of is are able to enjoy the cars for what they are with this **************** weather were getting now.
Great advice thank you!

I've been looking into the top issue - I really think it's the one outlined here:
Roof Issue
All adds up with the stretching of fabric (meaning it won't reach all the way), juddering noise as fabric rubs over frame, etc. Because of the hard top, the car is stored roof-down which can lead to shrinkage and this issue. I'm going to take a good look at it again now I know what to check. Still not ruling out anything like transmissions, but I'll be doing some thorough tests.

Yep, many sources confirm exhaust rattle is normal. I'll just live with it, or ask my mechanic to drop a couple of welds on there when it's in for unrelated work in the future.

CEL- I don't have an OBD reader, so unless I take it to a tech, I won't know. I am going to investigate the drain channels and test with some water. I forgot to add, this only happens when the owner parks on his sloped driveway, nose-in, with hard top (that covers things better) off. My hunch is that drains are blocked, and the rain pools on top of the engine cover below the clamshell, before finding it's way down and causing moisture on connections or MAF or something. Apparently this has been going on for a while and only ever happens after a hard downpour, before resolving itself after time to dry.

Bushings - it could be a clunk, I forget what was said. Owner is saying to price in a fix for those though, he seems pretty sure. I'll have to get it checked out (it will come out in an inspection) and see what the deal is. He did say though this only happens after long drives - so inclined to think it's not bump stop riding as that would happen all the time.

As for passing and finding something else... I'm only really interested in this one, truth be told. I know the seller and therefore the history. It's "come along" without me even looking so I either pull the trigger on this one, or I go without. I have another appointment arranged this week where I'll be doing some in-depth checking, and if we can agree on a price, I'll do it. Otherwise it'll be a pass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seal1968 View Post
What year is/was your 951?

I've had an 83 944 NA and an 88 944S previously...fun cars.
It's an 86. Bone stock aside from newer CD player and full stainless exhaust (OEM is NLA).

I'm not too far from you - maybe I'll take a drive up in the summer
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Old 02-16-2021, 04:57 PM   #12
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Sounds like a plan...I'd love to check out the 951.

Let me know sir!

Cheers, Rick
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:14 PM   #13
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Hagerty has an online valuation tool. You need to setup an account but it is free to do so. Here’s what I’m seeing for 2002 Boxster S:




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Old 02-16-2021, 05:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits704 View Post
Great advice thank you!



I've been looking into the top issue - I really think it's the one outlined here:

Roof Issue

All adds up with the stretching of fabric (meaning it won't reach all the way), juddering noise as fabric rubs over frame, etc. Because of the hard top, the car is stored roof-down which can lead to shrinkage and this issue. I'm going to take a good look at it again now I know what to check. Still not ruling out anything like transmissions, but I'll be doing some thorough tests.



Yep, many sources confirm exhaust rattle is normal. I'll just live with it, or ask my mechanic to drop a couple of welds on there when it's in for unrelated work in the future.



CEL- I don't have an OBD reader, so unless I take it to a tech, I won't know. I am going to investigate the drain channels and test with some water. I forgot to add, this only happens when the owner parks on his sloped driveway, nose-in, with hard top (that covers things better) off. My hunch is that drains are blocked, and the rain pools on top of the engine cover below the clamshell, before finding it's way down and causing moisture on connections or MAF or something. Apparently this has been going on for a while and only ever happens after a hard downpour, before resolving itself after time to dry.



Bushings - it could be a clunk, I forget what was said. Owner is saying to price in a fix for those though, he seems pretty sure. I'll have to get it checked out (it will come out in an inspection) and see what the deal is. He did say though this only happens after long drives - so inclined to think it's not bump stop riding as that would happen all the time.



As for passing and finding something else... I'm only really interested in this one, truth be told. I know the seller and therefore the history. It's "come along" without me even looking so I either pull the trigger on this one, or I go without. I have another appointment arranged this week where I'll be doing some in-depth checking, and if we can agree on a price, I'll do it. Otherwise it'll be a pass.









It's an 86. Bone stock aside from newer CD player and full stainless exhaust (OEM is NLA).



I'm not too far from you - maybe I'll take a drive up in the summer
It certainly sounds like you've done your homework! I hope everything works out. These are wonderful cars and certainly garner smiles at every turn

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Old 02-18-2021, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder_Man View Post
Hagerty has an online valuation tool. You need to setup an account but it is free to do so.
Not sure why I didn't try that first. I'm with Hagerty and the 986 will be insured through them... I guess because if their 951 values are anything to go by, they're a little optimistic. Great for a seller, but not as a buyer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seal1968 View Post
Sounds like a plan...I'd love to check out the 951.

Let me know sir!

Cheers, Rick
I'll PM you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ike84 View Post
It certainly sounds like you've done your homework! I hope everything works out. These are wonderful cars and certainly garner smiles at every turn
Thanks! I think this may well happen...

Updates from a second viewing.

Roof: gave it some time to be less frigid and supple up a bit - left it semi-open for an hour. No problems closing fully. Fabric did pop out of the frame but the elastic inside is not damaged. It opened and closed fine. What I DID notice is the juddering noise is not from the fabric stretching over frame, but the clamshell "arms" (whatever they are that slide in the runners) coming up against some resistance and juddering. Quick research shows needs grease at least, realignment at most. Other than that - roof is smooth and works fully, leading me well away from any transmission replacement theories.

CEL: After research and advice, took a look at both the immobilizer unit under the seat, and got into the DME area. Both absolutely bone dry with no evidence of water getting in (covered in fine dust, no run marks, no rust, no streaking, no corrosion on connectors). I did buy a cheap OBD reader and ran it, sadly no codes due to battery disconnection. Drains were free and clear of blockages. So... at a bit of a loss still on that one - I was told to walk away if the DME looked like it had seen moisture and it hasn't. So it will still be a bit of a roll of the dice - at least I know the DME isn't compromised though.

I think the tie-rod ends need doing, needs a good service, maybe tires (old) - so going to put in an offer later and see how it goes!
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Old 02-18-2021, 01:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits704 View Post
Not sure why I didn't try that first. I'm with Hagerty and the 986 will be insured through them... I guess because if their 951 values are anything to go by, they're a little optimistic. Great for a seller, but not as a buyer
It’s also quite useful when negotiating “agreed upon value” or “fixed value” automotive insurance coverage, which collector car owners favor heavily.


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