What’s wrong with this picture?

[jmitro]

it's not an LS1?
haha somebody had to say it

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Swing by a reputable shop like Jake Raby's or JFP on this forum and look at all the cars and engines waiting for IMS related rebuilds . Every time I swing by Jake's I just shake my head at the amount of dead Porsche's he has there waiting for repair and almost all are IMS related failures .

so that's what...10-15 cars out of hundreds of thousands. um yeah that is relatively rare

[maytag]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Swing by a reputable shop like Jake Raby's or JFP on this forum and look at all the cars and engines waiting for IMS related rebuilds . Every time I swing by Jake's I just shake my head at the amount of dead Porsche's he has there waiting for repair and almost all are IMS related failures .

Ummmm..... where do you think one would find the highest concentration of broken porsches? 'Cuz I would expect it to be at a porsche repair shop. So seeing 8 to 10 cars waiting for repair, while thousands of others tool-around without the problem sorta makes my point, doesn't it?

However: your proximity to raby's shop, (and your subsequent adherence to his religion), makes me unsurprised at your "testament" that IMSB related failures are imminent for all of us.

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[NewArt]

I have the pro version. An expensive bearing. I can use it if it’s not damaged but I’d be surprised if it survived the mayhem when that rod let go.

[rfuerst911sc]

Originally Posted by maytag

Ummmm..... where do you think one would find the highest concentration of broken porsches? 'Cuz I would expect it to be at a porsche repair shop. So seeing 8 to 10 cars waiting for repair, while thousands of others tool-around without the problem sorta makes my point, doesn't it?

However: your proximity to raby's shop, (and your subsequent adherence to his religion), makes me unsurprised at your "testament" that IMSB related failures are imminent for all of us.

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Haha the numbers of cars waiting to be repaired is much much greater than 8 - 10 cars but I don't want to side track this posting . I hope no one ever experiences an IMS failure . I don't drink ANYONE's Kool Aid I do my research and do what I think is best , no different than anyone else . Let's enjoy our cars .

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by NewArt

Thank you Paul for adding a sparkle into this dreary prospect!

FWIW mine was running too when the IMSB failed, at the valet parking of the Fairmont hotel at Mt. Tremblant before the first day of an HPDE. Shut it down and parked it, and restarted it one more time later that day so the 2 guys from my independent shop who were also at the HPDE could hear it. It sounded like a washing machine full of rocks running with no water in it. I also had very little metal in my filter or sump. My IMSB was an LN Single Row Pro with about 26,000 miles on it. I'm going with the permanent solution this time around.

[NewArt]

Originally Posted by PaulE

FWIW mine was running too when the IMSB failed, at the valet parking of the Fairmont hotel at Mt. Tremblant before the first day of an HPDE. Shut it down and parked it, and restarted it one more time later that day so the 2 guys from my independent shop who were also at the HPDE could hear it. It sounded like a washing machine full of rocks running with no water in it. I also had very little metal in my filter or sump. My IMSB was an LN Single Row Pro with about 26,000 miles on it. I'm going with the permanent solution this time around.

Well, that’s some interesting information! Did you talk to LN about the failure? 25,000 warranty?

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by NewArt

Well, that’s some interesting information! Did you talk to LN about the failure? 25,000 warranty?

They're doing right by me. Stuff happens. Who can say for sure if the oil pump part, timing chain paddle or IMSB went first. I always stayed with Mobil One, didn't switch over to the Joe Gibbs oil after the IMSB upgrade, which was done at 42,000 miles. And all this happened after driving 10 hours from NJ to Mt. Tremblant in 100 degree Fahrenheit heat last July. I'll be happy to get my car back and do a few HPDEs this season,

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by PaulE

They're doing right by me. Stuff happens. Who can say for sure if the oil pump part, timing chain paddle or IMSB went first. I always stayed with Mobil One, didn't switch over to the Joe Gibbs oil after the IMSB upgrade, which was done at 42,000 miles. And all this happened after driving 10 hours from NJ to Mt. Tremblant in 100 degree Fahrenheit heat last July. I'll be happy to get my car back and do a few HPDEs this season,

If timing chain paddle or oil pump had gone first that should`ve left the IMSB intact. After paying over $800 hundred for a bearing that falls apart in 26000 miles I think i`d be a bit more disappointed to say the least..

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by Homeoboxter

If timing chain paddle or oil pump had gone first that should`ve left the IMSB intact. After paying over $800 hundred for a bearing that falls apart in 26000 miles I think i`d be a bit more disappointed to say the least..

that's what i was thinking. and should be able to handle a weekend drive through the adirondacks without exploding.

[NewArt]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

that's what i was thinking. and should be able to handle a weekend drive through the adirondacks without exploding.

It’s a bit of a quandary. Here we have these cars that are getting rather long in tooth and have had certain very particular weaknesses. Obviously, there are not a miriad of developers looking for solutions in a non lucrative niche market so we are left with a handful of small guru companies that offer their flavor of “cure”. Many of us, myself included, have bought into the LN religion but it’s not as if we have a whole lot to choose from. Is an 800 dollar bearing really worth that kind of money? Paul may well think perhaps not, but then he decided to up the ante to the “ims solution”. Probably a good choice but again, it’s serious money for a feckin bearing!
Sorry about the rant but I don’t even want to talk about the $500+ (okay, only 400 US) that I just dropped for an engine rebuild 101 course from another of our favourite gurus which turned out to be a 4 hour feckin PowerPoint explaining to me basically everything that I already knew about these engines...

[PaulE]

Well I could be all upset and rant and rave but what good would it do? I'm not happy but it was either fix it or sell it as a roller. What happened immediately before my IMSB failed probably had nothing to do with it. The other parts that failed were probably collateral damage too, but some kind of foreign debris must have gotten into the oil that was splashed into the IMSB and caused it to fail. Porsche should have used an oil-fed plain journal bearing here in its design of the IMSB IMHO. Since NeWArt now has an engine to rebuild with a similar issue, I wanted to share my painful experience.

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by PaulE

Well I could be all upset and rant and rave but what good would it do? I'm not happy but it was either fix it or sell it as a roller. What happened immediately before my IMSB failed probably had nothing to do with it. The other parts that failed were probably collateral damage too, but some kind of foreign debris must have gotten into the oil that was splashed into the IMSB and caused it to fail. Porsche should have used an oil-fed plain journal bearing here in its design of the IMSB IMHO. Since NeWArt now has an engine to rebuild with a similar issue, I wanted to share my painful experience.

That totally sucks and i`m really sorry for this happened to your car. And thanks for sharing your story. May I ask what happened to the original bearing and why you replaced it at the first place? Also, was the seal for the bearing (the LN) removed? Thanks!

[kk2002s]

Originally Posted by PaulE

..... I'm going with the permanent solution this time around.....

Would that be buying a Honda Civic?

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by Homeoboxter

That totally sucks and i`m really sorry for this happened to your car. And thanks for sharing your story. May I ask what happened to the original bearing and why you replaced it at the first place? Also, was the seal for the bearing (the LN) removed? Thanks!

The LN bearings don't have any seals on the bearing itself to remove as far as I know. But my shop bought the bearing and did the work so I don't have first-hand experience of seeing the bearing. But I have no doubt they put it in! I had it done at about 42,000 miles. I bought my car new in 2003 and didn't know about the IMSB potential issue when I bought it, I learned about it later and decided to have it done after I got the class action notice, which was literally a month before my car would become too old for Porsche to be required to pay anything in compensation to me if the original IMSB failed. When I found out that the 2003-4 M96 engines had the highest IMSB failure rate I decided to get the single row pro which puts a dual row bearing in place of the factory single row. I still have the original IMSB which is fully intact although it has oil dripping out of the seals so who knows if it was destined to fail?

And kk2002s, yes my true permanent solution is my daily driver, but not really as I just sold my Acura and got a BMW (with a BMW extended warranty though)!

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by PaulE

The LN bearings don't have any seals on the bearing itself to remove as far as I know. But my shop bought the bearing and did the work so I don't have first-hand experience of seeing the bearing. But I have no doubt they put it in! I had it done at about 42,000 miles. I bought my car new in 2003 and didn't know about the IMSB potential issue when I bought it, I learned about it later and decided to have it done after I got the class action notice, which was literally a month before my car would become too old for Porsche to be required to pay anything in compensation to me if the original IMSB failed. When I found out that the 2003-4 M96 engines had the highest IMSB failure rate I decided to get the single row pro which puts a dual row bearing in place of the factory single row. I still have the original IMSB which is fully intact although it has oil dripping out of the seals so who knows if it was destined to fail?

And kk2002s, yes my true permanent solution is my daily driver, but not really as I just sold my Acura and got a BMW (with a BMW extended warranty though)!

Thanks. Do you happen to have the bearing that failed? I`d be very curious to see how it looks inside and what caused the failure. LN claims they have not received a single complaint about these bearings I`m kind of tending to think ceramic hybrids are not really good for this application and it`s better to stick to stell ball bearings similar to the original dual row design. Would be nice to see how many of these bearings failed and how many of them could make 100k miles without a problem like my original dual-row.

[PaulE]

Sorry I don’t have it any more and have to leave it at that for now. I did see it though and it looked a lot like the picture of the broken one NewArt posted above except it was dual row. After being without my car for over 6 months now perhaps I’m more philosophical but I don’t think you can read anything into what happened in my situation and write off all the LN ceramic IMSBs. Maybe I should have had my oil changed more often or switched to the Joe Gibbs oil or installed spin on oil filter. My car was 15 years old with 68,000 miles and the oil was always changed at least once a year and always with way less than 15,000 miles between changes. At least LN gave us something better than the original Porsche design. And when I had the IMSB replaced the Permanet Solution was also on the market but I thought it was overkill at the time.

[Gilles]

NewArt,

Just saw a message posted 'today..' on Planet9 by Charles Navarro:

SSF Auto Parts has 2.7 RND replacement engines on clearance as well with Nickies and IMSicon retrofit- that might be an option for less than a refresh on your existing one.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by PaulE

At least LN gave us something better than the original Porsche design.

How do you figure?

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[PaulE]

Originally Posted by maytag

How do you figure?

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I think a sealed ball bearIng packed with grease that is doomed to be washed away by the oil all around it was a half-assed idea at best. It’s like whoever designed the engine thought they were finished designing it, realized they forgot to deal with lubricating a bearing on the back end of the IMS and stuck the sealed bearing in there because it was too late to put an oil galley in the block to lubricate a tried and true plain journal bearing. At least LN and Flat Six studied the problem and came up with the open bearing with ceramic balls that should continue to function with splash lubrication. Nothing is always 100% perfect but they tried to improve on the design a lot of owners were already stuck with. Porsche’s ultimate answer was to eliminate the IMS entirely in their next generation of flat six engines.

Well that’s what I think, I’m not an engineer, but it’s my opinion.

[NewArt]

Originally Posted by Gilles

NewArt,

Just saw a message posted 'today..' on Planet9 by Charles Navarro:

SSF Auto Parts has 2.7 RND replacement engines on clearance as well with Nickies and IMSicon retrofit- that might be an option for less than a refresh on your existing one.

Thanks Gilles,
If you see my thread in the tech and performance section of this forum, you will see that I just missed out on the one and only 3.2 that RND had on clearance. Sad, it would have been a perfect solution.