alignment info and question

[The Radium King]

so, playing around with my new camber gauge and toe plates.

my last shop alignment was -2.5L -2.7R camber and 0 toe. this is with ksport coilovers that come with a top camber plate. at these settings the camber plate was set to max negative and the slots on the tower were in the middle.

when i measure with my camber gauge i get aound -2.7L -2.0R. no matter how i re-zero the gauge i get the same result. perhaps camber has drifted after hammering on it at the track i figure. i measure the toe at 0.

so, i loosen the nuts and push the strut tops full inboard. now, max negative, i get -3.4L -2.5R. odd that the shop was getting -2.7R at the half setting and the max i can get at the max setting is -2.5?!?!? looking at the alignment sheet they gave me, there are a bunch of corner balance scribbles on it, so i figure they corner balanced it after the alignment, and the ride height changes messed up the alignment and maximums.

regardless, after the change (1/2 a slot, a little over 1/2 degree more negative camber) toe went to 1/4" toe out. so, some info for you if you wish to change alignments between street and track - 1/2 degree camber = 1/4" toe. probably not a linear realtionship, however ...

questions - clockwise track, so the additional camber on the left side is not disliked, but will bad things happen if i drive around with mis-matched camber? how about toe - anyone driving around with 1/4" toe-out? too much even for track work i think. and, mismatched camber will mean toe is different from one side to the other - bad thing too i guess.

look like i'll push the camber on the one side back to -2.5, and see if i have to adjust toe afterwards. 1/16" toe out ok?

[The Radium King]

update. i pulled the left side back in to around -2.7 (back-off about 2/3rds of the slot) and toe is back to zero again. now for the back.

[AZ986S]

Just curious, what camber and toe gauge setup did you get?

[The Radium King]

tenhulzen:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Toe-Plates-Most-Accurate-DIY-Wheel-Alignment-Tool-Gauge/281932528463?hash=item41a47cfb4f:g:LO0AAOSwrmdTqJO 6

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Camber-Caster-Wheel-Alignment-Tool-Digital-Gauge-Accurate-to-Within-0-1-Degrees/281369072191?hash=item4182e7523f:g:PlcAAOSwnDZUIgA J

[steved0x]

I always understood that alignment had to be last after corner balancing.

I recently got some hub stands and I was measuring alignment and was getting different readings than my last shop alignment too, turned out my floor wasn't as level as I thought and I think that may have been a factor. I think just a few tenths of a degree would make one side read more neg camber and one side less. Leveling to the floor might work if it was a perfectly flat spot.

I have new respect for folks that do diy alignments, I am trying to learn it myself.

[The Radium King]

totally get the unlevel floor thing. i can 'zero' the camber gauge against the floor, but don't think the cars response to an unlevel surface is equivalent to how far the floor is out (ie, a floor that slopes .5 degree in one direction doesn't mean that the camber is .5 degree higher on one side and .5 degree lower on the other).

at the same time, after futzing with it and seeing how crude camber adjustment really is - just three studs in a slot (not to mention any wheel variations) - .5 degrees is really your margin of error - be happy if you can get the two sides within that. any shop that gives you an alignment spec to three decimals of accuracy is just playing you.

[The Radium King]

and ... steve - saw your thread on the spc arms on rennlist. let me know how they work out, as they are half the price of the competition. i am thinking of some for the front if max camber i can get with camber plates is -2.5.

[The Radium King]

ok, home alignment complete. thoughts:

on the front i was able to get -2.8 on both sides, with 1/16" toe out. camber is very sensitive to ride height and wheel position (have your steering wheel straight when doing this). also, you pretty much have to take the car for a drive after each setting change to let everything settle back into place after jacking.

i have ksport coilovers with camber plates and the adjusting screws are virtually inaccessible once the coilovers are installed, so set them to max negative and use the slots to fine-tune. -2.8 is pretty good, but looks like i need some adjustable front lower control arms to get myself into the -3 range where i'd like to be (or lower the car - that will get some negative camber also).

if you are thinking of adjusting camber between street and track, i found that .5 degrees of negative camber at the strut top = 1/4" toe out. realise increasing negative camber at the lca wil have the opposite effect - toe in (i can't quote a ratio for that). so, you can't really modify camber without getting the toe someplace you don't want it.

on the rears, same deal - camber plates are not accessible. also, strut tops are are not slotted. fortunately, there is an eccentric on the lcas so i was able to get -2.2 on both sides with the camber plates in the middle position. again, 0.5 degrees of negative camber at the lca = 1/4" toe out. i was able to dial the rear toe back to 1/16" toe in. easy to do - you can use the eccentric bolt on the rear toe arm or, if you have an adjustable one like me, adjust the arm instead. possible to get immediate results this way - back off the two locking nuts and you can adjust the arm with the car on the ground and just dial in the toe you want.

[steved0x]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

and ... steve - saw your thread on the spc arms on rennlist. let me know how they work out, as they are half the price of the competition. i am thinking of some for the front if max camber i can get with camber plates is -2.5.

They are working out but you have to keep an eye on that threaded bottom plate as I had one of mine get loose somehow (or maybe it was always loose?) Or maybe it loosened when I was installing the arm. I believe if the ball and stud turns, for example when you are first tightening and the tapered shaft isn't tight enough, it will turn the ball which presses that threaded cap which I think can turn and subsequently loosen it. One onwer left a review on Pelican that the threaded cap fell off when driving. I think this could be mitigated by using loctite on the threaded cap and running them only on the back.

I bought the little wrench to use to tighten them and I have tightened them down to (will have to check but it was the min inch/pounds reading on my "small" torque wrench, which did allow me to get some tightening on both) and then I used wicking loctite all around the threads.

If you buy new I would:

1. Remove the threaded cap and clean the threads of any grease that may have seeped down
2. Put loctite, I like 243 medium oil resistant on the threads.
3. Thread it on and immediately do the procedure to set the turning resistance before the loctite cures
4. Measure the torque it takes to get the bottom threaded cap to turn at that point.
5. Check it from time to time using that torque value.
6. Not use them on the front, when the car steers the arm would rotate around the ball and I think that would cause a potential for loosening since the ball would help to rotate the cap off when steering in one direction. In the back you only get movement in the other direction. Or, find some way to safety that cap so it can't unthread.

Also there is no way to counterhold the stud when installing, I plan to buy two small jam nuts and see if that works.

All that said I have been using them on the back for 5-6 track days now and I like the extra neg camber I can get in the back with them, it is helping I would use them on the back again, but not the front.

[The Radium King]

thanks. honestly, they frighten me from what i've read about them. starting to get shimmies and rattles from the front and back, so thinking rebuild time. current thoughts are:

front - erp lcas (cheaper than everything but the spc units and never heard anything bad about erp). already have stomski racing tie rods. tarret thrust arms. this will get all the rubber out of the system, and the adjustable thrust arms will allow me to widen my track and get rid of front spacers. will have to figure out what i want for front caster setting.

rear - eps thrust arms and lcas (their thrust arms have the harder bushing, and the lcas have a serviceable ball joint). already have rennline toe rods. get aftermarket inner bushings and thrust arm bushings for the new lcas to get the remaining rubber out of the system. camber and track width not an issue at the back.

powerflex sway bar bushings front and back?

[edc]

I am using Powerflex black on both ARB or sway as you call them.

[steved0x]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

thanks. honestly, they frighten me from what i've read about them.

I rigged up way to safety wire them and it worked, (but is kludgy) had a good weekend at Sebring with them, and I just learned that they have revised the design and there is a positive locking mechanism designed in to prevent the caps from unthreading. Outside of the cap loosening, I have been satisfied with the arms. They are going to warranty exchange my old arms for the new design, as soon as they get some of the new ones in stock. I will report back with pics when I get them.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

thanks. honestly, they frighten me from what i've read about them. starting to get shimmies and rattles from the front and back, so thinking rebuild time. current thoughts are:

front - erp lcas (cheaper than everything but the spc units and never heard anything bad about erp). already have stomski racing tie rods. tarret thrust arms. this will get all the rubber out of the system, and the adjustable thrust arms will allow me to widen my track and get rid of front spacers. will have to figure out what i want for front caster setting.

rear - eps thrust arms and lcas (their thrust arms have the harder bushing, and the lcas have a serviceable ball joint). already have rennline toe rods. get aftermarket inner bushings and thrust arm bushings for the new lcas to get the remaining rubber out of the system. camber and track width not an issue at the back.

powerflex sway bar bushings front and back?

TRK:
did you ever settle on a caster setting that you like?

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by maytag

TRK:
did you ever settle on a caster setting that you like?

nope - car didn't move once in 2019 - spent all my time trying to keep the triumph running. do have all the components assembled (except the solid inner lca bushings - finding it difficult to pay ira $150 x4) so wanting to get it assembled this spring. will most likely stay w factory spec however.

there is an interesting thread on rennlist about a guy who bought a 996 track car and was experiencing front rub; turns out the car had so many shims in the lcas that the wheels were about an inch forward in the wheel well. he corrected the caster and noted a reduction in steering 'sharpness' as a result. if interested i can search it out for you and you might be able to pm him directly.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

nope - car didn't move once in 2019 - spent all my time trying to keep the triumph running. do have all the components assembled (except the solid inner lca bushings - finding it difficult to pay ira $150 x4) so wanting to get it assembled this spring. will most likely stay w factory spec however.



there is an interesting thread on rennlist about a guy who bought a 996 track car and was experiencing front rub; turns out the car had so many shims in the lcas that the wheels were about an inch forward in the wheel well. he corrected the caster and noted a reduction in steering 'sharpness' as a result. if interested i can search it out for you and you might be able to pm him directly.

I'm interested. I'm maxed-out on shims and still can't hit -3d, and I'm experiencing the described issue, with the wheel so far forward. (Adding camber plates this winter, to alleviate that a little)
Whose thrust arms are you using?

I REALLY want to use pcarferher's (member here) ever since he teased me with an image of something he isn't ready you sell me yet, hahaha. He says he's not close (too busy making his LCA's and camber plates) , so I'll probably need to go another way.
Would love your opinion or advice.

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[The Radium King]

info in these ...

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1143250-do-you-have-a-fender-rolling-tool-for-sale.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1143460-suspension-adjustment-to-correct-caster.html

[maytag]

So honestly, I can't find any adjustable thrust arms that aren't prohibitively expensive.
I came across these bushing kits.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PELTETABKA01.htm?pn=PEL-TE-TABKA01

They say "adjustable", it seems that it really has only two "settings". Am i seeing that right?
Has anyone used these? How much am I going to get out of it?

Or does anyone know of a thrust arm that's in a reasonable price range?

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[steved0x]

You rotate it to adjust the caster, you bolt your thrust arm to the offset hole and rotate the puck to adjust, you can use it to let the LCA back a little to account for the shims which push the end out which pulls the arm forward.

So far I've only ever used OEM GT3 LCA style with two fixed holes so I can't say how much the solid style gives. I think RSS has a slightly better price for a pair.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by steved0x

You rotate it to adjust the caster, you bolt your thrust arm to the offset hole and rotate the puck to adjust, you can use it to let the LCA back a little to account for the shims which push the end out which pulls the arm forward.

So far I've only ever used OEM GT3 LCA style with two fixed holes so I can't say how much the solid style gives. I think RSS has a slightly better price for a pair.

Yeah, I was schooled up already by TRK that these go in the LCA. I was hoping they were for the other end of the thrust arm. My FVD arms have the offset hole, and I'm using it. I'd love to hear from others that use the fvd LCA's. It seems odd that I'm full of shim, (can't add any more) and still not at -3d camber, and approaching 10d caster.
I ordered some adjustable thrust arms today. They're actually for a 996.... gsp says they won't work on the 986.... but I sure can't figure out why not. We'll see when they get here.

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[The Radium King]

ride height and top mount position in the slots will impact max camber as well. camber plates will get you additional camber. not sure why your caster is off; the thrust arm bushing options are all pretty similar across vendors and caster should not be out that bad? regardless, adjustable thrust arms will solve it.