718 sales poor

[algiorda]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

you could care less that the 718 is missing one of the things you love most about your car? The "guttaral yowl" of the flat six climbing from 3k to 6k RPM?

I haven't driven the VW'esque turbo 4's but by all reviews I read the heart of the engine is no more. Sounds like driving an electric car. Sure it's zippy but you might as well be driving a souped up bumper car at the carnival.

Have you looked at the performance specs of the 718? (2017 Porsche 718 Boxster S Sport Chrono PDK: 11.9 1/4 Mile time - Fastest Boxster Ever) I could care less about the growl and more about the finish line. Besides, I think Porsche has done a wonderful job tuning the 718 4cyl exhaust. I will admit the lower end Turbo torque will be some getting used to.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by algiorda

Have you looked at the performance specs of the 718? (2017 Porsche 718 Boxster S Sport Chrono PDK: 11.9 1/4 Mile time - Fastest Boxster Ever) I could care less about the growl and more about the finish line. Besides, I think Porsche has done a wonderful job tuning the 718 4cyl exhaust. I will admit the lower end Turbo torque will be some getting used to.

yes cars get faster with time. But they don't become more driver oriented because in order to capture that extra tenth of a second on each corner the car must take the driver out of more of the equation. And having been in a wide variety cars I can tell you the more involved over a lap the driver is the more exciting 9 in 10 drivers will be.
Part of that experience is the car letting you know its right there with you audibly and through feedback. Yet the newer the Porsche the more that is blunted.

Give me the Boxster Spyder with the 911S flat 6 engine even if the flat four T is faster over a lap. I doubt you would be able to tell which of the two was the faster lap if you drove both cars until you crossed the finished.
Your getting the flat 4 not because its faster, but because its cheaper to build and less likely to break down in-warranty. Making these levels of power reliably with flat 6 requires a lot more egineer noggin.

[BIGJake111]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Give me the Boxster Spyder with the 911S flat 6 engine even if the flat four T is faster over a lap. I doubt you would be able to tell which of the two was the faster lap if you drove both cars until you crossed the finished.

The flat 4 would feel much faster from what I've read.

However, I agree the spyder is the car I would want.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by BIGJake111

The flat 4 would feel much faster from what I've read.

However, I agree the spyder is the car I would want.

The depreciation curves between the 981 Spyder and the most optioned 781 S's will be night and day.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

yes cars get faster with time. But they don't become more driver oriented because in order to capture that extra tenth of a second on each corner the car must take the driver out of more of the equation.

So where is the sweet spot? The Model T? Cars built in the 60's? 70's?

I don't agree that cars are taking the driver out of the equation - not completely anyways. Evolution is all around us - enhancements are made and sacrifices are made, but the offset is normally for the better.

[cas951]

I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.

[algiorda]

Originally Posted by cas951

I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.

Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list!

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by algiorda

Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list!

It's already there, Porsche uses a speaker on the 718 to "enhance" engine sound. Not a new concept, BMW has been doing it for years including the M cars. The Mustang uses a tube from the intake to the firewall so it's more of an amplifier than fake, I think the Camaro might use a speaker though.

I'm big on sound, and not much on fake. Probably why everything except for my wife's minivan has some variety of exhaust system. My 986S has catless headers, secondary cat bypass pipes, and a sport exhaust, and while I'm positive the 718 could run circles around it, I bet mine sounds better.

[cas951]

Originally Posted by algiorda

Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list!

I think BMW is already doing this.

[rp17]

Originally Posted by algiorda

Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list!

I thought they did that a couple years ago..

Well the 718 is a great car but it did loose that flat six sound that new buyers may not care about but stunned me after hearing it. But i find something so wrong with a 90k car with only 4 cylinders.. takes sometime getting use to i guess..

[911monty]

I think there is already a parallel to this. Anyone remember the Harley Davidson collaboration with interestingly enough Porsche developing the V Rod engine? This was a departure from the air cooled to water cooled engines and is a much superior engine. However the demographics did not change. The Baby boomers insisted on the traditional sound and quirks of the air cooled engine and would not touch the evolution. The V Rod now sells to a much younger demographic. This could be desirable to draw the younger crowd, but how many first time Porsche owners can afford an >$80k car especially one that is dinosaur powered. I suspect if they can afford that price they will buy a Tesla instead.
It will be also interesting to see what happens when the Corvette becomes mid engine next year.

[Porsche9]

Originally Posted by cas951

I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.

I too have driven 718 S a couple times. I like everything about it expect the sound (there's a speaker between the seat that pipes in sound!!) and in some situations it had a bit of turbo lag which was exaggerated when the A/C was on.

[Pominoz]

Originally Posted by cas951

I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.

I agree, I think previous owners are where they are suffering with the 718. Even my lowly 986 2.7 arguably has all the performance you need on the road, It's about the overall experience and grin factor, the sound a flat 6 makes is good for the soul. I'm in a Porsche club, and nobody in the club has bought a 718 yet, or intends to as far a I know. In Australia at least, I think the 718 is easily the most expensive 4 cylinder car you can buy, It's just not a premium device, engine wise. It will be interesting to see what the residuals are when people start to sell them used.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Pominoz

It's just not a premium device, engine wise.

I think many owners in that Porsche club you mention would highly disagree! Porsche has a very strong history when it comes to 4 cylinder engines.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-four-cylinder-flat-engine-history-12270.html

[Pominoz]

Originally Posted by Giller

I think many owners in that Porsche club you mention would highly disagree! Porsche has a very strong history when it comes to 4 cylinder engines.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-four-cylinder-flat-engine-history-12270.html

This is my club, I've been a member for two years and know the other Boxster/Cayman owners well. I don't know anyone who has a 718 or intends to in the future, they're keeping their 981s rather than trading in.

http://www.pcv.com.au

[BIGJake111]

Originally Posted by Pominoz

I think the 718 is easily the most expensive 4 cylinder car you can buy, It's just not a premium device, engine wise. It will be interesting to see what the residuals are when people start to sell them used.

This is by far the cars biggest weakness. The 968 was a very good 4 cylinder, but no one wanted to pay that much for one. When I think 4 cylinder at most I think of my mothers Camry or of domestic economy cars, saturns and etc.

You can sell a 718 still because it is fast and stylish, but you can't expect a 4 cylinder motor to not devalue the car regardless of speed improvements.

I want one pretty bad and it makes the 981 look ugly by comparison in many aspects, (at this point I think 986 and 718 are the purest exterior designs) however I wouldn't pay a premium over a 981 gts to get a car that reminds me more of an Audi TT at most rather than a pocket Carrera gt.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by BIGJake111

This is by far the cars biggest weakness. The 968 was a very good 4 cylinder, but no one wanted to pay that much for one. When I think 4 cylinder at most I think of my mothers Camry or of domestic economy cars, saturns and etc.

You can sell a 718 still because it is fast and stylish, but you can't expect a 4 cylinder motor to not devalue the car regardless of speed improvements.

I want one pretty bad and it makes the 981 look ugly by comparison in many aspects, (at this point I think 986 and 718 are the purest exterior designs) however I wouldn't pay a premium over a 981 gts to get a car that reminds me more of an Audi TT at most rather than a pocket Carrera gt.

BMW M2 - premium sport coupe - 4 cylinder engine. Mercedes AMG Cl45 - 4 cylinder engine. Alfa Romeo 4C - 4 cylinder engine. Yeah, those are some low-end, dowdy vehicles!

Seriously people, a 4-cylinder will devalue it? Yeah, just like water-cooled has devalued all those cars.....or power steering, or any number of 'silly' technological advances.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Giller

So where is the sweet spot? The Model T? Cars built in the 60's? 70's?

I don't agree that cars are taking the driver out of the equation - not completely anyways. Evolution is all around us - enhancements are made and sacrifices are made, but the offset is normally for the better.

This is the sort of thing where I wish some car magazine would take an aircooled Porsche and let a factory pro drive the car and then give it to a weekend warrior. Note the spread between their lap times. Now take the latest flavor of the day water cooled Porsche and do the same test at the same track with a pro and amateur and note the spread as a % over the aircooled's spread. When the 996 first came around we saw weekend warriors coming within a second or two of the factory drivers. It would be very revealing to see how the 718 fares in that regard since the S is already as fast (if not faster) than the GT4.