A Pro driver/coach drove my car at Roebling Road Raceway
This past Monday 2/27/2017 was an Open HPDE hosted by Holy City Motorsports. They run a couple of different formats include a private track day limited to 15 cars, and an open format limited to 20 solo drivers and 20 novice drivers with hour long solo session with 30 minute novice sessions in between.
The one I went to also had a coaching option where you (along with the other folks that selected this option) could receive driver coaching and data review/metrics by Cory and Adam Friedman of Autometrics motorsports: Autometrics Motorsports | Club Racing, Pro Racing, Race Coaching
I'll start out by saying this coaching exceeded my expectations - I don't think I am ready for a dedicated coach for the whole day. This shared format was perfect for me.
I started the day by driving around 15 laps or so to get myself and the car warmed up. During these laps I ran a string of 3 laps that were within a hair of my previous best of 1:29.27. This is typical for me as it is usually cool in the mornings and I usually run my best times.
Then Cory Friedman drove my car - he first took me out at the end of the novice session, but there was traffic on every lap and so he was driving laps in the 1:30-1:31 range. When the novice session ended we gridded up and so we were then the first car out in the next 1 hour solo session. Holy cow, it was awesome, after our out lap we ran 3 laps in the 1:24-1:25 range, the fastest (they all were very close) was 5 seconds faster than my fastest time! His brother was apologetic because I think he thought I was upset when I was telling him, but I was not, it was awesome!!!!
Here is the view from in the car showing the driver inputs, with data overlay from Harry's Lap Timer:
He is taking it easy because it wasn't his car, and yet totally smokes me. It truly was awesome to see the car perform at that level. I guess I can save my money on buying parts for a while as I get my driver development in line.
The line that Cory drove was very similar to my line, except that he tracked out wider through 1-2 and also through 5 (both of these complexes are decreasing radius double apex turns). I lack the courage to really charge into 1 and 5 because it feels like I am running out of room so I go in more slowly. He had me work on that a little bit, and the other advice he had was "that I could go faster just about everywhere " but especially in the faster corners where I am leaving so much on the table. Through the slower constant radius corners (4 and 6/7) I am doing OK.
I worked on this some, and then Cory rode in the car with me as a passenger with specific things to work on (go faster nearly everywhere but specifically we worked on 1/2 and 5 and carrying more speed through 3 and 8/9)
After this I would drive a session or two and then check in with Cory, review notes, etc... They also had an Aim SOLO they put in the car and then Adam would review the data and give feedback. He said mine looked ok (except that I could go faster everywhere) but that something was wrong with the braking or something in turn 5. I was carrying a lower speed and therefore not tracking out and not needing to brake.
Here is an example of this:
Around 3:00 I decided I wanted to make a run for home as soon as the day was over so I changed out from my Nitto NT-01 to my Hankook R-S3.
Then I had an interesting thing happen - I found that I could sense the limit better, and it gave me courage to really push, and I ran two final sessions with long strings of my best laps, culminating in the final 2 laps that beat my personal bests with a 1:29.09 followed by a 1:28.38 (nearly a full second faster than 1:29.27) - note that I ran my first 1:29 back in October 2015 so I have been at this point for a while.
Now I have beat this time, and I know (and can feel) that the car has much more to give. I ran my fastest lap of the day, it was lap 100!!! (100 laps in one day!!!) I wonder what would have happened if this was a 2 day event and I was able to go out the next morning with the cooler weather and see what I could do.
Here is my final lap which is now my personal best to date:
Later that lap, 13:16, the car behind me goes off, you can hear the screech of the tires. I wish I had my back camera going: https://youtu.be/53gc2ahkmow?t=13m16s
If you go to the beginning of that video, he is gridded behind me. I got lapped in 10 minutes This guy was FAST. He was coming on my like I was standing still.
All in all, it was a great day! Any time I take almost a second off my best time and get off the 1:29 plateau I had been on since Oct 2015 is a good day
Steve
PS There were lots of neat cars there, this was my first in-person look at a new Boxster Spyder (it was there under the blue tape somewhere)
Also I corded my left rear outer edge of the Nitto and didn't realize it until I got home, in the paddock the tires are covered with so much grit and sand and straw that it was hard to see. I am going to have to be very diligent about checking better in the future. My car isn't really setup for R-Comps, I am currently at -2 in the front and -1.6 in the back, 0 toe front, .08 degree toe in per side in back.
For now I am going to stayon the R-S3 (I know I have said this before) and work on maximizing the grip on those tires. Also I don't want to spend any more money on tires for a while
Last edited by steved0x; 03-06-2017 at 01:18 PM.
Reason: typos
Cool! Great to see you gained so much from the coach. It must be a really good feeling to see those improvements and to know there's more were that came from without doing a thing to your car. Sounds like you should stick with your setup until you hit the absolute limit on what the car can do which looks like it could be as low as 1:23. Keep on going with the driver mods!
__________________
03 Carrera
02 Boxster S Guards Red, black interior with matching hardtop
89 Carrera 4
89 944 S2
78 911SC
The photographer just posted up some photos of the event, here is my favorite shot from my car:
The photographer also got a few pictures of Don, the event organizer, getting loose in turn 5 and laying down some rubber, this as a pretty cool series of shots:
Here is a gif of me catching an Alfa Romeo:
Not the greatest animated gif, they take up a lot of room and are hard to make small enough to get uploaded here
Watched the video. Thanks for the description/narrative! Fun times!
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James now has: 2008 987S 6 speed
Crashed: 2010 987.2 pdk in speed yellow!
Sold to a cool racer chick: 2004 986 S
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Yep, swap seats as often as possible with experienced drivers and learn from both sides of the car. Last weekend I got a pro coach in the car on a track I have 1000 laps logged. He had a few suggestions that I applied and they worked well. There is always more time we are leaving on the table out there.
__________________
2009 Cayman 2.9L PDK (with a few tweaks)
PCA-GPX Chief Driving Instructor-Ret.
Yep, swap seats as often as possible with experienced drivers and learn from both sides of the car. Last weekend I got a pro coach in the car on a track I have 1000 laps logged. He had a few suggestions that I applied and they worked well. There is always more time we are leaving on the table out there.
That is awesome and I am definitely going to try and do it again!
I am giving up almost a second each in the two fastest corners - turn 3 and turn 8/9
Cory is going down to 3rd going into turn 1 and I go down to 4th. He really rockets out of turn 2, partly because he is in 3rd but also he really gets on the gas early and the car is really pushed to track out, where I am still kind of driving out to trackout (not as much but I still am)
That same thing applies to most of the other corners, he really gets a better exit than me due to carrying more speed and/or more early throttle application.
Looking at the accelerometer, he is often pulling a sustained .1 G more than me through a corner. On the faster corners, this often equates to higher mid-corner speed. In turn 8/9 at times he is 10 MPH faster than me mid-corner.
From all of this I have several things to work on, and I think I could pick up another 1-1.5 seconds just by doing a few things:
Carry more speed from the exit of 2 up through 4. How? Shift to 3rd before turn 1, get a better launch out of 2, and build my speed up and don't lift off too much before turn in for 3.
Carry more speed through 8/9. How? Don't lift off as much, maybe shift from 3->4 a little bit later and then hold maintenance throttle to keep my speed from dropping too much.
Sounds easy, but I have been trying to work on these two corners for a while... It is easy to type it, but hard to keep my foot from lifting off the gas...
If I could pick up even .5 second that would put me down into the 1:27's which would make me about even with my friend Caleb who has a 981 PDK Cayman, I would love to be able to keep up with him
Here is a track map of Roebling Road so you can see the corners I am talking about.
By looking at the track, a lot of folks count 6 corners. I think I heard it has the numbering it does because of corner stations.
Here is another view that shows the radii and some more details about the track and corners. This form has been copied so many times it is barely legible - I would love to find an original copy.
Last edited by steved0x; 03-09-2017 at 05:42 AM.
Reason: Added picture of RRR diagram
I made a little comparison video between my best lap and Cory's best lap to see if I could more easily identify spots where I was giving up time.
Nicely done! This is a great way to analyze data/video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steved0x
From watching this video, a few things stand out:
I am giving up almost a second each in the two fastest corners - turn 3 and turn 8/9
Cory is going down to 3rd going into turn 1 and I go down to 4th. He really rockets out of turn 2, partly because he is in 3rd but also he really gets on the gas early and the car is really pushed to track out, where I am still kind of driving out to trackout (not as much but I still am)
That same thing applies to most of the other corners, he really gets a better exit than me due to carrying more speed and/or more early throttle application.
Looking at the accelerometer, he is often pulling a sustained .1 G more than me through a corner. On the faster corners, this often equates to higher mid-corner speed. In turn 8/9 at times he is 10 MPH faster than me mid-corner.
The common thread here is "skill while driving at the limit". All of these areas can be improved by karting!
Quote:
Originally Posted by steved0x
Sounds easy, but I have been trying to work on these two corners for a while... It is easy to type it, but hard to keep my foot from lifting off the gas...
Its all about confidence. Again, easier said than done. You just have to work thru it. At some point, you'll realize that the journey is more mental than physical.
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1999 996 C2 - sold - bought back - sold for more
1997 Spec Boxster BSR #254
1979 911 SC
POC Licensed DE/TT Instructor
Nicely done! This is a great way to analyze data/video.
The common thread here is "skill while driving at the limit". All of these areas can be improved by karting!
Its all about confidence. Again, easier said than done. You just have to work thru it. At some point, you'll realize that the journey is more mental than physical.
Thank you! Also there is a 3 hour endurance Karting race coming up this Wednesday at the Autobahn Karting facility in Jacksonville, price is very reasonable for teams and some of the autocross guys here are going. I may just jump right into the deep end with my Karting initiation
Being as quick as your buddy in the 981 PDK would be an ego boost. Being on the receiving end is annoying and makes one even more prone to mistakes when looking in the mirror, especially when you have the faster car. Ask me how I know. It's also a motivator and let you know there's plenty more in it.
__________________
03 Carrera
02 Boxster S Guards Red, black interior with matching hardtop
89 Carrera 4
89 944 S2
78 911SC
Being as quick as your buddy in the 981 PDK would be an ego boost. Being on the receiving end is annoying and makes one even more prone to mistakes when looking in the mirror, especially when you have the faster car. Ask me how I know. It's also a motivator and let you know there's plenty more in it.
Yes it is! I love keeping up with and/or passing faster cars!
On the flip side, I have been passed by many a Miata...
Yes it is! I love keeping up with and/or passing faster cars!
On the flip side, I have been passed by many a Miata...
My first HPDE day through local PCA it was a guy in a base 944. I later found out he was in the expect group but liked driving in the intermediate group because he did not want to watch his six for the faster cars. I ended up spinning it in a sharp right hander because I was allowing myself to be distracted watching my six and desperately not wanting to be passed by a slower car. Lesson learned, don't let your ego make you do something stupid.
__________________
03 Carrera
02 Boxster S Guards Red, black interior with matching hardtop
89 Carrera 4
89 944 S2
78 911SC
What tire pressures are you running on those RS-3s? They love tire pressure. The best car feel and consistency was with a tire pressure in the high 40s when hot.
Beside Karting, think about sim racing. You can learn a lot with a Logitec G27, a PC and IRacing. My setup is probably getting as expensive as my Porsche(Fantec with my own design sim rig) , but the amount of seat time that you will be able to do and different cars you can drive can't be beat. Day 1 on track I was faster without PSM then with and it was my first track day with my boxster, faster then most of the cars in the group. I credit the amount of time I spent with 911s "RUF" and mid engine cars I drove. For example, my friends and I are practicing and tuning a AMG GT3 to run the 12 hours of Sebring. I did maybe 4 hours yesterday and the track is burned into my mind. Check it out.
Also getting passed by a miata doesn't mean anything. A "slower car" may have more go fast upgrades to it: Tires, brakes, suspension and aero then your car. Tires are by far the biggest variable when it comes down to times, suspension second. Then again a stock car on R comps will be faster then a car with coilovers and street tires.
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2001 Boxster S (SOLD)
1991 Nissan Silvia "K"(Forgotten somewhere in Canada)
1989 240sx (Track car)
1987 325IS (Soon to be Spec E30 racecar)
2001 GSXR-600 (Almost warm outside!)
Last edited by WorkInProgressK; 03-09-2017 at 10:52 AM.
What tire pressures are you running on those RS-3s? They love tire pressure. The best car feel and consistency was with a tire pressure in the high 40s when hot.
Edit I got my sheets.
Before session 1, tires cold
F 33 33
R 35 35
After a 25-30 minute session (I did most of my sliding around this session) including a 2 mile cool down lap:
F 37 37
R 41 40
I bled these down to:
F 34 34
R 36 36
After a break I ran another 20 minute session and came off with
F 34.5 34
R 36.5 36
Car was incredible. 75 F OAT these sessions.
End edit
I would have to get my sheets out (I will update this tomorrow if I remember) but the first session I drove I started at 32/33 cold (tires had been sitting for hours) and I think I came off close to 37/39 close to 40 I'm pretty sure. They still felt really good. When I first started to do HPDE I would run them way over 40 hot (this is high 40's hot after a leisurely cool down lap too..) because I was afraid I would roll them over on the sidewall so I was paranoid. They were terrible at that pressure to me.
After this session I bled a few pounds off and the next session I think I came in with 34/36'ish hot after the cool down lap.
In my (limited) experience, They feel best to me when I come in and see around 32/33 or 33/34, but that is after a 2 mile cool down lap, so it is possible they are near 40 during the actual hot laps. I don't have any "track support" (he helps change the tires if needed but then he often sleeps) to check them if I come in during a session.
Yeah I was lucky two weeks ago, I had a really cold & rainy day which provided only minimal tire pressure changes. Basically cold is hot to 1 or 2 psi. I was running laps around other rwd cars and keeping up with fwd and awd cars. Shared my "secret" to another Porsche enthusiast and he gained 2 seconds on his time.
__________________
2001 Boxster S (SOLD)
1991 Nissan Silvia "K"(Forgotten somewhere in Canada)
1989 240sx (Track car)
1987 325IS (Soon to be Spec E30 racecar)
2001 GSXR-600 (Almost warm outside!)
If you can afford it, paying a coach will really help your driving! There's nothing like personalized attention, and they will push you to improve all the time. Those turns you are losing so much time in? Once you go as fast as the coach does a few times, it'll become the new normal.
I remember when I was still taking driving schools before I started racing, one of my instructors kept telling me that I could go quicker in the turns. He clearly didn't know what he was talking about, because I was a nineteen year-old hot shoe that had dominated my autocross class. I told him that the car simply wouldn't go any faster through the turns, and he very politely asked if he could drive the car to check that out. I let him drive, and was shocked at how much quicker he was than me! I was stunned; it just hadn't seemed possible that the car could do that. It was very humbling, but once I drove again, I was just about able to match him, and it probably knocked 2 or 3 seconds off my lap time.
One of my best friends is a pro driving coach. His main client is a rich guy that competes in the Ferrari Challenge. His client started racing last year (crazy to start out in the Ferrari Challenge - those are serious, very fast cars), so it has been quite a progression. I was at last year's 24 Hours of Daytona, and one of the support races was the FC, so I got to watch Ed's client in his first race. It was not impressive; he got lapped about a third of the way through the race and finished either in last or next-to-last place. By the end of the season, he finished fourth in the championship race, an unimaginable result given how out-to-lunch he was in his first race. That just shows what personalized, one-on-one attention can get you.
Of course, the Ferrari Challenge guy is paying my buddy many thousands of dollars to get that kind of support, but if you rented a coach twice a year, it would really pay off.
" but especially in the faster corners where I am leaving so much on the table. Through the slower constant radius corners (4 and 6/7) I am doing OK.
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Porsche 996 GT3
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