Metal flakes in oil

[GTsilber]

I just changed my oil last week and put about 200 miles in the car since. Today, decided to drop the filter and just inspect the oil for any abnormalities. When I changed the oil last week, there were a few plastic and metal flakes, not pieces, in the filter. But after dropping the filter again there seems to be ALOT more metal in the bottom of the drain container- looked like the milky way.

Here's a pic, hard to get a good angle but you can see that when I tilt the pan the metal glimmers in the sun...thoughts?

2004 box s, 6 speed, 88k miles

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Timco]

Did you use a new filter with last oil change? Open it up? Time for a magnetic oil drain plug.

Test oil for presence of antifreeze of it looks milky.

[GTsilber]

Originally Posted by Timco

Did you use a new filter with last oil change? Open it up? Time for a magnetic oil drain plug.

Test oil for presence of antifreeze of it looks milky.

Used a new oil filter for the change. Already using a LN magnetic oil plug, but I stripped it No coolant in oil, just tested. I think I'm going to get the ims replacement - possibility of buying a new engine doesn't sound great. What else could it be, variocam?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by GTsilber

Used a new oil filter for the change. Already using a LN magnetic oil plug, but I stripped it No coolant in oil, just tested. I think I'm going to get the ims replacement - possibility of buying a new engine doesn't sound great. What else could it be, variocam?

As you already have metal in the oil, and if it is ferrous, replacing the IMS would be a waste of time and money as the metal will just kill the new bearing.

[thstone]

I see those little teeny tiny sparkles (when the light hits the oil just right) when I change oil on all of my cars and have never worried because there are only two options: (1) tear down the engine to find the source.; (2) do nothing.

It seems like it would be hard to justify tearing down an engine because of these microscopic metal particles, but its your car and your budget so you will have to make whatever decision you feel is right.

If you're really worried, have the oil tested and then you'll know exactly what is in the oil.

For reference, this is what a real problem looks like:

[Gelbster]

Probably wise to drop the sump plate to inspect. If you have a serious problem, there will be material on the bottom of the sump plate also.

[GTsilber]

Originally Posted by thstone

I see those little teeny tiny sparkles (when the light hits the oil just right) when I change oil on all of my cars and have never worried because there are only two options: (1) tear down the engine to find the source.; (2) do nothing.

It seems like it would be hard to justify tearing down an engine because of these microscopic metal particles, but its your car and your budget so you will have to make whatever decision you feel is right.

If you're really worried, have the oil tested and then you'll know exactly what is in the oil.

For reference, this is what a real problem looks like:

Thanks thstone - that pic definitely helps determine a serious issue. At this point i may just be overreacting, as I'm not familiar with seeing metal in my oil...I always assumed it was a serious issue. Maybe this is just the beginning of something more severe? I will continue to monitor the oil but are there any other signs/symptoms I should look out for?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[stelan]

There will always be microscopic pieces of emtal in the oil as this is what wear is, but In my opinion if these particles are visible to the human eye then that is more than regular wear

[Bootlegger]

My simple minded advice... Buy a Filter Magnet and see how much you catch in the filter. Then make a decision on worrying or enjoying your drives but on a lighter wallet. Coin flip?

[j.fro]

Send a sample away for an oil analysis. They'll tell you exactly what's in your oil and add insight. FWIW, I use Blackstone labs.

[GTsilber]

Originally Posted by j.fro

Send a sample away for an oil analysis. They'll tell you exactly what's in your oil and add insight. FWIW, I use Blackstone labs.

Just requested a sample kit, will post what the findings are.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Bobiam]

Analysis poo........ Time for a IMS bearing change. I would not drive that car AT ALL until its done.

[GTsilber]

Originally Posted by Bobiam

Analysis poo........ Time for a MS bearing change. I would not drive that car AT ALL until its done.

I have my doubts about driving the car as well - conflicted.

[Bobiam]

Most people having an IMS issue get only a few seconds warning if at all. Finding those chips may very well be a blessing. The car will need an IMS bearing and clutch eventually. Do it now. Even if suspicions are wrong, the car will be worth thousands more and won't be as difficult to sell some day in the future. And you can go back to sleeping at night!!!!!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Bobiam

Analysis poo........ Time for a IMS bearing change. I would not drive that car AT ALL until its done.

The quickest way to destroy a new, and expensive, IMS bearing retrofit is to do it on a car that already has metal circulating in the oil. If this car was in my shop, we would decline to do the retrofit.

[Bobiam]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

The quickest way to destroy a new, and expensive, IMS bearing retrofit is to do it on a car that already has metal circulating in the oil. If this car was in my shop, we would decline to do the retrofit.

So then, what would you suggest to save this engine if those particles are a deteriorating bearing retainer or race????

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Bobiam

So then, what would you suggest to save this engine if those particles are a deteriorating bearing retainer or race????

You have very few viable options. You could try multiple oil & filter changes (use cheap, light weight non synthetic oil; do not drive the car, just run it in place until warm). After three or four changes, pull the sump cover and open up the last filter; if there is still ferrous metal in there, it is time to pull the engine and either take it apart or replace it. And even if the engine appears to clean out, you are still running a thin risk of retrofitting it.

We have had more than one cars brought to the shop that had metal in the oil and were then flushed and retrofitted with an new IMS by someone else. Unfortunately, none of them survived for very long due to internal damage caused by the circulating metal. I am only aware of a very, very small number of engines that lived for any period of time after being found with metal and an attempt was made to flush them out without taking them apart. The odds are simply not with you.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and accept what has happened, and move on from there..

[78F350]

Originally Posted by Bobiam

So then, what would you suggest to save this engine if those particles are a deteriorating bearing retainer or race????

Determine the cause and extent of the problem before dumping many hundreds of dollars on what may or may not be the issue.

Analysis poo........ Time for a IMS bearing change. I would not drive that car AT ALL until its done.

+1 for the stop driving.

-1 for poo.

IMS bearing is not the only thing that can put sparkles in your oil.

The IMS bearing was still decent in the engine I pulled this out of:

But the engine was well beyond repairable.

[78F350]

...and not to be any more of a downer to GTsilber, but read this post. Especially the part after the picture:

Originally Posted by flaps10

...What cracks me up more than a continuous flow of IMS threads are the number of people who wish to have such threads deleted. Let's not talk about ass cancer, so no one will get it. It is as if jamming your head in the sand and refusing to talk about it will make the "myth" go away, or that it will keep the value of your awesome sports car from tanking any more than it already has. If that is the case, then buckle up because these cars now cost more to fix than they are worth (just look at the number of rollers for sale). But take heart because according to the past two issues of Exellence after 30 years of looking up the nostrils of 911 drivers, the 914 is now officially an awesome car and a true Porsche! So there is hope.

Here:

This is the MINIMUM pile of parts you could expect to get away with and reassemble an M96 when an IMS bearing lets go. And I don't mean coming apart and destroying valve timing. My engine ran perfectly and I caught metal in the filter on an oil change. Not even very much metal. My car is a double row IMS, the kind that supposedly don't fail often.

Thanks to a single direct comment from Jake I abandoned plans to replace my IMS and flush the engine. I'm SO glad I followed his advice (never spoken to the man or paid him a dime). I put the past several months of my spare time into getting my car back together with the minimum of damage to my wallet. Honestly I should have spent about $6k more than I did. All I'm getting for my efforts is the 120k mile car I bought, and not a new engine.

When I took my engine apart I found evidence of a previously welded cylinder head (#15), a busted oil ring (not on the list), a spun rod bearing on cylinder six (#5), and of course the IMS (#8). So either my engine is a complete s*** show or these engines have some "flaws". Some of both I suspect.

[Gelbster]

The paramount problem is not the IMSB. That is a relatively easy fix.
How are you going to remove the debris from the oil circulation system. Changing the IMSB,oil and filter is not a solution.No amount of flushing is effective. It lasts a few hundred miles maybe a little more .Ask me how I know!
Be very wary of buying a car with a recent IMSB change. The 'clever' flippers may not even tell you the IMSB change has been done. But you'll find out soon enough !
Just google "debris oil raby"