Professional detailing

[Wintermute]

OK, so I've been trying to figure out the best way to get my 02 S detailed. I have access to an orbital polisher (don't have the $ right now to buy my own) but I don't have a swirl remover, polish, sealant, or the most important ingredient: Time. I got a quote on a professional detailer that can do the whole process for me. This includes:

1) Full wash and water spot removal.
2) Clay bar of entire car
3) Swirl remover with a product called Presta (Googled it and it seems pretty good)
4) Teflon paint sealant from a company called Car Brite (also seems like a quality product).

The price he quoted me is around $120. Their Web site has many pics of other cars they have done (including several restored 911s and some very nice Ferraris) and they seem to do good work.

Now I don't mind doing the washing and clay bar work myself, or even applying wax or sealant as needed. But I just don't have the time to do the full paint prep and decontamination required. So if I pay this guy to do the whole thing, how long would it be before I had to redo the swirl removal and decontamination part? I know sealants last 4-6 months, but does that mean that I need to repeat the entire process every 6 months or can I simply reapply the sealant after a good wash and clay bar? I would seem to me that a swirl remover is only needed when the swirls become noticeable.

Any thoughts/opinions would be apreciated.

[Perfectlap]

Too bad your're in Arizona I'd do it for half that.
Log onto Autopia and post a thread saying your looking for a proper paint cleaning and swirl removal in AZ. 100% sure you'll get answer fast.

As for your current offer...
Well it all depends on how many hours they are actually going to put into it.
I can easily spend 3 hours washing, claying and buffing out swirls, sealing, glazing. Not to mention the interior! Most places can't afford to spend this much time on a car so they give your car about an hour and a half. Not worth $120 in my opinion, your getting a hurry up job. You've got to make time for your baby!

this is how long it takes a newbie (at a minimum)
1. 15 minutes to wash and dry (twice)
2. 30-45 minutes to clay (most important step)
3. 1 hour to swirl remove (you have to go SLOW moving a couple of inches at a time left to right SLOWLY this CAN NOT be done properly going fast)
4. 20 minutes to polish by hand with Klasse All in One
5. 20 minutes to seal with orbital polisher Werkstat Acrylic Jett or Poorboys EX
6. 20 ninutes wax (natty's blue for dark, FK pink wax on light) and FK 425 as a dust repelling final step.


If I were you I would pass on this $120 and put that money towards your Detail Fund to invest in a Porter Cable Orbital polisher from Lowe's $140 or coastal Tool $120 . Paying another guy that much seems like a waste, detailing supplies are expensive and one time of $120 is only good for ONE TIME. Using the PC is time consuming but you'll get your money back on not having to pay some guy $100 to buff your car.

If you already have an orbital polisher see if it uses velcro pads and buy some that you can keep. Poorboys SSR 2.5 is my swirl remover and Klasse All in One my polish/cleaner wax, Poorboys EX to seal. Dark colored cars love Poorboy's Natty Blue. Buy that stuff now and you can maybe rent the PC for you pre-winter electric polishing. In between now and then you can use the product by hand.

p.s.
If you sign up for the newsletter at detailcity.com you'll get a 10% discount which is nice on an expensive order.

[Wintermute]

Hmmm...you raise some good points. I'd honestly rather do everything myself for $ and learning purposes. I wasn't sure if $120 was reasonable for that kind of service or not. I could buy a lot of Klasse and Jett Trigger for that $, that's for sure. The biggest hurdles to all of this is time and facilities coming in second. I live in an apartment complex that has covered parking (already invested in a nice Weathershield cover), but no good place to detail my car.

However, my GF's father has a nice garage and an orbital polisher, so I don't have to buy my own right away and it gives me a good place to work. Plus he's a car nut (and loves my S ), so he has tons of tools and car care stuff that I can use if I want (though I'm going to buy my own stuff).

So with your advice on time and process, I think I'm just going to do this myself. I've already got the basic washing and waxing materials, plus I got a Mother's clay bar this weekend. Man, clay works wonders! There was a spot on the passenger side headlight "hump" that was so rought to the touch that you could HEAR your hand glide over it. 10 minutes with the clay and it's smooth as glass. I'm also using Meguiar's NXT Tech wax and it looks GREAT on the Lapis blue.

So thanks for the advice (and if you're ever in Tucson, feel free to detail my car! ). Oh, one more thing that didn't get answered. How often is advisable for the swirl remover?

[Perfectlap]

$120 is about avearge around these parts for a 'buffing'. They use really cheap stuff, its very rare that you will find a professional detailer who uses high end stuff like Klasse, Poorboys, Zaino, Menzerma etc.

The swirl remover frequency depends on your washing techniques. This is 90% of where swirls are created. If you wash on weekly basis you'll have way more swirling than a car that is washed once a month and kept in a garage. Using halogen lights is the best method to determine when you need to remove swirls.
If you can see them in plain daylight under the sun or under parking lights then its bad. I never do swirl removal more than twice per year(max) because I am extremely cautious in washing methods. With a dark colored car I would completey refrain from dry dusting the surface and I would keep quick detailing between washes down to a minimum. If you must... spray each panel with a quick detailer (I use FK 146, bought it by the gallon) and wipe in the direction of the wind, flip towel. And don't use autostore Micro fiber towels. They are nothing more than janitorial towels repackaged for car lovers, horribly over priced and too rough for your paint and have to be washed several times to be particle free. Buy a 12 pack of towels (with silk binding or waffle weave) from Poorboysworld.com or detailcity.com and you'll find your paint will show dramatically fewer swirls.

If you live in an apartment (I just moved to a condo in gated community, no garage) I HIGHLY recommend two things:

1-Optimum No-Rinse (available at Detail City)
2-ditching the car cover or using it ONLY after you have washed the car (and the cover!). putting that cover on a dirty car will get the inside of the cover dirty and it will be running sand paper across your paint. If you have covered parking a cover seems more trouble than help.

Optimum No-Rinse and another product called QEW are must haves during winter and for those who don't have access to a hose on a regular basis. Buy a bottle of either (ONR is said to be better than QEW), get yourself two one gallon buckets, a sea sponge,a couple of wafle weave towels for paint and an absorber for the top and glass. I like to spray the almost dry car with FK 146 to reduce swirling during drying. ALso, You can go to Lowes or Home Improvement and get one gallon pesticide sprayers($8) to wash your wheels and top or simply go down to those coin operated places to rinse your top to lift the dust from the canvas.

here's a thread that outlines its use.

http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32078

[Wintermute]

Good advice. The complex has a car washing station (that has some nice shade, no less) so I can wash the car anytime. Plus winter in Tucson or Phoenix means its about 60 degrees. So car washing is a year-round thing here. I have some quick detailer (Mother's I think) that seems to work really well. I really only use it to get bugs off in between washings. However I do need some better microfiber towels. Mine are plenty soft, but they just have a lot of lint and fuzz.

BUT I have to disagree with you on a few points. First, the car cover is a must for any car kept outside in the Arizona sun. Especially a ragtop. There's lots of convertibles running around here that are great in the spring and fall, but once summer hits those tops go up, the AC goes on and they don't come down again until October. So from May to August at least, you have your top up and getting hammered by the sun. Only takes a few good summers of sun beating down to turn your black top grey. Also, the heat and intense UV will fry UV protectants both in waxes and fabric protectants like Raggtop MUCH quicker than in milder climates. Everyone has a different opinion, but having lived here for almost 20 years this is what I have observed.

I know the dangers of A) covering a dirty car and B) using a car cover when it's windy. So I always make sure my car is clean and waxed when I cover it. And I use a California Car Duster every time I put on the cover. I've used those dusters for years on our old 68 Chevelle that has almost the exact same dark blue paint as my Boxster (it was repainted a few years ago with a metallic paint and clear coated) and have never had them cause a single scratch or swirl if used properly. And the covered parking does help, but it really only keeps the sun and rain off. The sides are open and allows all sorts of dust and dirt to blow all over.

The trick with a car cover in my experience is to get one with a soft, slick inner layer that won't scratch and won't trap grit. I don't like covers that have the fuzzy inner layer because they just grab any bit of passing dust and rub in onto your paint. I prefer the Covercraft Weathershield covers as the inner layer is extremely slick and smoth, but it's not fuzzy. They do warn you to only cover the car clean and waxed, however. I also make sure I wash the cover often.

[luxury1]

My car is only a few months old and I already have swirls. What am I doing wrong? I use a clean towel everytime and it is always damp. I have begun using microfiber towels also.

Does anyone have a step by step process for removing swirls?

[Wintermute]

Well the facts of life are that, unless you live in a bubble along with your car, swirls are a part of car ownership. Dust and dirt just contains particles that are harder than the clearcoat on the car, hence swirls.

But if you are simply wiping down your dusty car with a damp towel, all you are really doing is dragging dirt across your paint. Use a quick detailer like Mother's Showtime. These have lubricants in them that will help prevent swirls and scratches, and they will help clean off bugs and bird crap.

Washing is the only really safe way to remove dirt, but even then you have to be careful. First you need the right materials and proper washing techniques. Here is how to properly wash your car:

http://www.autogeek.net/exterior.html

The supplies you'll need will be partially based on personal preference. So here's a short list of good choices:

Buckets:
- 2 buckets: 1 for the wash water, and one for rinsing your wash tool in between dips into the soap
- 1 bucket with a GritGuard (mesh insert that keeps dirt and grit on the bottom)

Wash tool*:
- Sheepskin wash mit
- Microfiber wash mit
- Natural sea sponge
- Boar's hair brush

Drying tool*:
- Waffle-weave microfiber towels, such as Cobra's "The Guzzler" (should have 1 of these in any case)
- Natural or synthetic chamois (never been a fan)
- California Water Blade (basically a big squeegee made with medical-grade silicone. HIGHLY recomended in conjunction with The Guzzler)
- A leaf blower (hey, what's softer than air, eh?)

*Wash your wash tools and drying towels after EVERY wash. This will preven grit from getting trapped in the fibers and causing (you guessed it) swirls. Except the leaf blower of course.

Now that you have the basic washing and drying down, the next step is how to remove swirls. Paint detailing is a basically a 4 step process:
1) Decontamination (wash and clay bar)
2) Swirl removal
3) Polishing
4) Sealing (waxing after sealing is optional, some ppl just prefer the look)

So here's the basic process for swirl removal (thanks to Perfectlap and all the other swirlophobics out there ):

1) Wash your car with a degreasing dish soap like original blue Dawn. It will strip off old wax, grease, and anything else while not damaging the paint.
2) Dry the car.
3) Run your hand across the paint. Is is smooth as glass? If not, you need to use a clay bar to remove surface contaminants. Even if it feels smooth, you must do this step anyway, or you will be sealing contminants into your paint: http://www.autogeek.net/detailing-clay-bar.html
4) If, at this point, you have old waterspots on your car, there is an easy, cheap way to remove them: white vinegar. Just put some vinegar on a microfiber towel and wipe the spots off. Don't worry: It won't harm your clear coat. Most commercial water spot removal products (like Ducky) are mostly vinegar anway.
5) Wash and dry again with your favorite car wash (I prefer Meguiar's Gold Class).
6) Use a swirl remover, preferably with an orbital polisher. Poorboys 2.5 is a recommended product. Your paint may look dull after this step. This is normal, so don't worry. http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-polisher.html
7) Polish by hand with a high-end polish like Klasse All-in-One, or Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish. This will restore your shine and gloss.
8) Finish up with a good paint sealant with the orbital polisher. The Poorboys EX or Werkstat Acrylic Jett are getting lots of praise. You can also use the Werkstat Acrylic Jett Trigger (spray form of the standard stuff) and do it by hand. Sealants last 6 months, so this is the best way to protect your paint.
9) (Optional step) Wax with your favorite wax. I like the Meguiar's NXT Tech wax (a synthetic non-carnauba), but it's really up to you. The Pinnacle Souverän wax is supposed to be excellent.

So there you go. Hope that helps. Others may have other tips that I might have missed (I'm still learning :P ), so read up as much as you can. If time is a factor for you (like me), check a few posts back from this one made by Perfectlap. He has some good time estimates on how long it should take.

[luxury1]

I did some of this but definitely picked up a few more steps. This is really great information! Thanks!!!

[Perfectlap]

winterminute,
what you should keep in mind is that the paint on your Boxser is VERY different to the paint used on GM and Chevy cars. Actually you can't buy the type of paint used at the Porsche factory here in America. If your car is ever in a collision you will be getting the American Porsche paint version which is much harder and less susceptible to scratching and micro marring but also not as purty.

Thus, California Car dusters and any type of dry dusting really is not good for your car. And for your Audi friends it's REALLY a bad idea. Good luck getting swirls out of that paint. Hardest clear coat anywhere. You actually need a special PC polisher attachement just for audi finishes.

If you don't want the top to fade I would get a softop cover which are sold on ebay for $50 and protect your interior from fading. It will protect the top without touching the paint.
Car covers are fine in theory but most people I've known use them too frequently and don't wash or clean the car each time they use them. It's unavoidable paint damage. I'm very sure you will get less paint damage going naked and parking in the shade vs. the cover. Paints, even the German ones, today are remarkably resilient to UV and all the other damaging rays. Your trim and soft top different story. But that's where disciplined use of 303, 1z vinyl and rubber or even armor all will pay off.

Swirls can be removed with an orbital poilisher but that stuff is micros thin and you can only do it so many times before the clear coat finish is in danger of failing.
Replacing your soft top and shooting a new layer of clear coat are two ENTIRELY preventable expenses.

p.s.
you are very lucky to have a car wash port! cleaning the barrel of my wheels is going to be a PITA without lots o' water.

[Wintermute]

So you are saying that the swirl remover should be applied by hand? I thought a polisher was the prefered way of doing swirl removal?

As for the cover, I understand the issues involved with them and I am very careful. I don't use the cover daily, usually only for a few days after I wash and wax my car. I also clean my cover often. The real problem is the place my car spends 80% of it's time in the uncovered parking lot at work, the only shade comes from a few trees that are invested with doves. I learned my lesson quickly that that is a bad place to be. The trees drop all kinds of sap and twigs, and the doves...well you know that scene in "Fight Club" where they sprinkle bird seed on the roof next to the BMW dealer? Yeah...no thanks.

I am intrigued by the softop cover and I think that might be perfect for everyday use. Thanks for the tip.

[slogans7]

Wintermute - as hot as it can get in Tucson, you'd do well to make sure your top has been treated with Raggtopp Protectant a couple times a month during Summer.

I also agree with 'Lap about investing the money in a Porter Cable. The device makes applying and/or removing cleaners, sealants and wax quite easy. Besides, you can also use it when you need anything perfectly sanded. The Boxster is a small car and you can really give your car a beautiful - and protective - shine is just a few hours. Once you do it, you'll realize it's too much fun to outsource.

[Wintermute]

Agreed. Raggtop is tops on my list of car car products to buy. :P Along with the Porter Cable polisher, sealant, swirl remover, polish...damn list just doesn't get any shorter. I just keep checking things off, then adding more. Ah well, such is life.

[Perfectlap]

well the soft top cover is amust have for you blazing sun folks
I would attach this only from the front and rear, cut the doorhandle loops off with a scissors. Not good to be rubbing on the paint that often.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-06-PORSCHE-BOXSTER-CAR-COCKPIT-COVER-ALL-WEATHER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50456QQitemZ806 7851262QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
this guy should give me a commission!

Originally Posted by Wintermute

So you are saying that the swirl remover should be applied by hand? I thought a polisher was the prefered way of doing swirl removal?.

As for the swirl remover what I meant to say is that there are only so many times you can go the PC route to remove swirls. Probably why its best to start off with as mild a swirl remover that will do the job. If you still see swirling kick up to the next most abbrasive formula. This way you aren't needlessly cutting away clear coat.
Swirl removal by hand won't save you any clear coat and just give you carpel tunnel syndrome.

[Wintermute]

OK, I see what you mean with the swirl remover, that makes more sense. Man I hate how fast paint degragdes. I mean why has there been a clear coat or some similar material developed that can withstand the rigours of the modern world? I guess you have to sacrifice some durability and resiliance for attractiveness to sell cars. Maybe nanotech will come to the rescue and develop self healing and cleaning paint. Wouldn't that be nice? A layer of nanobots that can break down dust and dirt and use the raw materials to repair scratches and chips.

Mayhaps, mayhaps.

[slogans7]

Yeah, once you get into detailing your own car - and poring over the info at Autopia.org - you'll be surprised at how much you can spend. But it's a healthy addiction, and I've found it can be a valuable activity to preclude having to assume other nasty chores, like grocery shopping, laundry and bathing the dogs (at least in my case). BTW, I let my wife use my Porter Cable to refinish a favorite table of hers. She now likes the device and has stopped referring to it as "that stupid spinning thing."

[Perfectlap]

well if its any consolation I took some nice pics of my old car after lots-o' detailing work and those pics were used to find a internet buyer who 'had to have' my car.
Guy flew up one Saturday morning from Florida gave me cold hard cash (nearly twice what I was expecting) jumped into the car and drove right back to Florida.
I even detailed it the morning of the sale, I saw the whites of his eyes grow larger as I pulled up to the terminal.




spending $500 bucks on detailing crap might seem like allot but sooner or later you'll run into someone wanting to buy that shiny car. I have two guys now who think I'm selling my Boxster to them.
I said yeah yeah ok so they would quit asking me about it.

[SD987]

Although I'm a Rejex fan, I recently prepped with the the "Dawn" and "Vinegar" steps for the first time. Wow, tremendous difference!

Perfectlap, I am also now a worshipper at the altar of the Sea Sponge. Much better than the Microfiber wash thingie.

[Perfectlap]

Yeah I just started using teh Sea SPonge. I got sick of washing MF mitts two and three times and still finding particles in there. A good twist of the Sea Sponge and it seems to come clean in a snap.
The ultimate combination would be sea sponge and foam gun. With a 'curling' type technique where you lubricate the surface as you chase it with the sponge.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by slogans7

I also agree with 'Lap about investing the money in a Porter Cable. The device makes applying and/or removing cleaners, sealants and wax quite easy. Besides, you can also use it when you need anything perfectly sanded. The Boxster is a small car and you can really give your car a beautiful - and protective - shine is just a few hours. Once you do it, you'll realize it's too much fun to outsource.

Even with an orbital buffer my wrists end up hurting--bad wrists and joints from typing on a keyboard all day.

I also find that buffers waste a lot of product either from slinging it around or just soaking it up in the pads. But by far the most annoying thing for me is that you need to mask off all the trim on the car so it doesn't get on everything and even then you still have to do fine detailing around edges and hard-to-reach spots.

I gave up on buffers because of all this--the big sweeping expanses of sheet metal aren't the hard part about polishing/waxing a car--it's all the little details that make the job a pain in the ass.

[Wintermute]

eslai -

So what's your technique for swirl removal and polishing? Do you just do it by hand?