Go Back   986 Forum - for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners > Porsche Boxster & Cayman Forums > Boxster General Discussions

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-21-2014, 07:42 PM   #1
Registered User
 
Porsche man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 41
Garage
IMS Failure

Hi all, I expect we are all getting very tired of this subject, but I have recently purchase a 2000 Boxster S in great condition with 80k on the clock. The car has regularly been serviced and the previously owner had a new clutch installed recently by a Porsche dealer. Unfortunately the dealer did not address the IMS situation and is unable to tell me now if the IMS bearing was a single or a double.
I have read that 2000 Boxsters up to engine number 11237 have most likely have had a double IMS bearing installed.
I have also read that vehicles with double IMS bearings have only a 1 percent failure rate against those with the single bearing having a rate of approximately 8 percent
My engine number is M96 / 2167Y05233
How reliable is the information regarding the pre 11237 motors ?
It seems amazing to me that a renown company such as Porsche has no factual records of what motors have what components installed.
Hope someone can help
Cheers
Chas
Porsche man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2014, 07:49 PM   #2
Gone
 
Davev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: NV
Posts: 249
Garage
Even with your worst case possibility - that's a 92% chance of no problem. Better odds than picking a wife!
Davev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2014, 08:04 PM   #3
Registered User
 
lkchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Posts: 649
I rather think it's simply Internet legend that Porsche doesn't know which style engine is in which car.

How do you suppose they came up with the list of cars for the IMS class action settlement?
FAQs | IMS Porsche Settlement

Since my early 2001 isn't listed I'm fairly comfortable it's a dual row.

This is just USA stuff of course.
__________________
Kent Christensen
Albuquerque
2001 Boxster
2007 GL320 CDI
3 BMW motorcycles

Last edited by lkchris; 04-21-2014 at 08:07 PM.
lkchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 01:19 AM   #4
Registered User
 
Porsche man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 41
Garage
Good point you make Dave but I have been happily married for 45 years and don't aim on blowing it, Can you imagine trying to explain to a woman how it is possible to get a costly PPI and then a few months later having to spend $13,000 on an engine rebuild.
Women just don't understand these things !
Porsche man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 02:02 AM   #5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 5,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche man View Post
Hi all, I expect we are all getting very tired of this subject, but I have recently purchase a 2000 Boxster S in great condition with 80k on the clock. The car has regularly been serviced and the previously owner had a new clutch installed recently by a Porsche dealer. Unfortunately the dealer did not address the IMS situation and is unable to tell me now if the IMS bearing was a single or a double.
I have read that 2000 Boxsters up to engine number 11237 have most likely have had a double IMS bearing installed.
I have also read that vehicles with double IMS bearings have only a 1 percent failure rate against those with the single bearing having a rate of approximately 8 percent
My engine number is M96 / 2167Y05233
How reliable is the information regarding the pre 11237 motors ?
It seems amazing to me that a renown company such as Porsche has no factual records of what motors have what components installed.
Hope someone can help
Cheers
Chas
On the 2000 and 2001 cars, the only known way to correctly tell which bearing is in the car is to take it apart and look. All of the VIN number and build date lists have proven time and again to be useless.
__________________
Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
JFP in PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 03:30 AM   #6
pjv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 68
Garage
Porsche Man, I think the advice given by JFP is the best you will get. I also think that even if you knew which bearing was in your car, you would still be wondering what was going to happen around the next corner, so best to get it inspected and maybe replace it while the gearbox is out. I had exactly the same concerns about my wife's reaction to a major engine rebuild as you have, and in the end she was surprisingly easy to convince that going the whole hog and installing the IMS Solution was the way to go (my car is 04 model).
pjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 03:51 AM   #7
Registered User
 
Benjamin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 149
Garage
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are, it is very doable to check and replace the bearing yourself. It can be done with normal tools acquired from Harbor Freight if you don't already have them. Only one specialized tool is necessary and that's the bearing puller. At the same time you would be doing a check and possible replacement of the rear main seal, transmission shaft seal, clutch, slave cylinder, and every part that you take off during the process. I did mine over the course of two weekends. I also decided that I wasn't going to take the time to drop the transmission, clutch, flywheel, and muffler only to inspect the bearing. No matter the condition, I was going to replace it since I was there.

I have a 2000 dual row. The engine number and PO paperwork indicated it should be a dual row, but I still didn't believe it 100% until I laid eyes on it.
__________________
2000 986 S - "The Black Widow"
Benjamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:41 AM   #8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 231
You have all of the factors that make this a tough decision, clutch just done, mileage on the edge, and not sure if it's a single or double row. I think it comes down to a personal cost/benefit analysis. As mentioned above if you can performed the IMS replacement yourself, it's relatively low cost and likely a good investment even if for nothing more than piece of mind. If you can't and the cost is high in your area then I would compare that cost with the probability of failure and the associated cost to address it (e.g. used engine, etc....)
runjmc2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:56 AM   #9
Registered User
 
seningen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: austin
Posts: 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche man View Post
Good point you make Dave but I have been happily married for 45 years and don't aim on blowing it, Can you imagine trying to explain to a woman how it is possible to get a costly PPI and then a few months later having to spend $13,000 on an engine rebuild.
Women just don't understand these things !
You can have a physical -- and then have a catastrophic illness.

She might not like the analogy -- but she should understand it.

Mike
__________________
Drivers: '08 Cayenne Turbo, 96 993 Çab/Tip (wife's) & '92 964 Cab
Race Cars: '75 911 RSR Clone & '99 Spec Boxster
mike@lonestarrpm.com
seningen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:56 AM   #10
Registered User
 
Perfectlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 8,696
The number of ims-related engine failures where the original bearing was already replaced with a new one, be it the LNE or some other, is probably a rounding error.

I guess you can see what my advice would be. Short of simply getting it done I might look into installing the LNE Guardian in the dash that warns of impending doom.

I had my IMS replaced when it was clutch time but in retrospect I would have done it pre-emptively anyway.
You're talking about a day at the shop vs. worrying until the clutch wears out.
For me, it's simply not worth having that on my mind just to milk every last mile out of a $600 clutch part. And once you've put in a new clutch, you have a new clutch. utility.
New water pump should also be on the agenda if you're looking at the big picture.
__________________
GT3 Recaro Seats - Boxster Red
GT3 Aero / Carrera 18" 5 spoke / Potenza RE-11
Fabspeed Headers & Noise Maker
BORN: March 2000 - FINLAND
IMS#1 REPLACED: April 2010 - NEW JERSEY -- LNE DUAL ROW

Last edited by Perfectlap; 04-22-2014 at 06:59 AM.
Perfectlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:30 PM   #11
Registered User
 
Porsche man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 41
Garage
Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.
Just as well that Porsche didn't flog their M96 motors to any light plane builders as they did with the PFM 3200 to Mooney!!
Cheers
Porsche man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 04:50 AM   #12
Gone
 
Davev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: NV
Posts: 249
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche man View Post
Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.
Just as well that Porsche didn't flog their M96 motors to any light plane builders as they did with the PFM 3200 to Mooney!!
Cheers
A plane motor? Now that would keep me up at nite worrying about an IMS.
Davev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 06:43 AM   #13
Registered User
 
Perfectlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 8,696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche man View Post
Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.
my suggestion, don't think of it as an upgrade. Think of it as servicing your IMS with an IMSB that happens to come with some engine-saving improvements.
Just like the coolant cap and so many important things that don't last forever.
__________________
GT3 Recaro Seats - Boxster Red
GT3 Aero / Carrera 18" 5 spoke / Potenza RE-11
Fabspeed Headers & Noise Maker
BORN: March 2000 - FINLAND
IMS#1 REPLACED: April 2010 - NEW JERSEY -- LNE DUAL ROW
Perfectlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 10:22 AM   #14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 37
It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.

Mine is a 2002 Tiptronic, so unless something goes wrong, there's simply no routine reason to separate the transmission from the engine. So my concern is that I could end up wasting time and money only to discover that an upgraded IMSB has already been fitted by a previous owner...

Unfortunately the car didn't come with a complete service history. I could fit the Guardian but that is arguably additional wasted money if the IMSB has already been upgraded.

Ultimately, my car only cost £5400, it's a gamble but any cheap-ish 12 year old car can suffer a sudden and expensive fault which effectively writes it off. In my case, the most cost-effective solution is likely going to be frequent oil and filter changes. If mine goes kaput I'll just balance the net loss after parting out what's left of the car against the costs of fitting a proprietary IMSB solution.

IMSB failure is a worry, but if I'm going to allow that to ruin my enjoyment of the car or force me to spend a small fortune fixing something which is statistically unlikely to occur then I may as well sell up and buy a Honda s2000.

If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.
__________________
2002 Boxster 2.7 Tiptronic S, Lapis blue, right-hand drive.
Obertelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 11:06 AM   #15
recycledsixtie
 
recycledsixtie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Edmonton Canada
Posts: 824
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obertelli View Post
It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.

Mine is a 2002 Tiptronic, so unless something goes wrong, there's simply no routine reason to separate the transmission from the engine. So my concern is that I could end up wasting time and money only to discover that an upgraded IMSB has already been fitted by a previous owner...

Unfortunately the car didn't come with a complete service history. I could fit the Guardian but that is arguably additional wasted money if the IMSB has already been upgraded.

Ultimately, my car only cost £5400, it's a gamble but any cheap-ish 12 year old car can suffer a sudden and expensive fault which effectively writes it off. In my case, the most cost-effective solution is likely going to be frequent oil and filter changes. If mine goes kaput I'll just balance the net loss after parting out what's left of the car against the costs of fitting a proprietary IMSB solution.

IMSB failure is a worry, but if I'm going to allow that to ruin my enjoyment of the car or force me to spend a small fortune fixing something which is statistically unlikely to occur then I may as well sell up and buy a Honda s2000.

If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.
OB I have sent you a pm.....
recycledsixtie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 11:35 AM   #16
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Quote:
It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.
We do… But sometimes you don't know.. What you don't know. Each of our units is serialized and matched to the VIN of the fitted vehicle along with its engine serial M designation number. This is in the door jamb of every vehicle we have ever retrofitted here at Flat 6 and is also supplied with the IMS Solution kits.

We have also used a similar decal for every standard IMS Retrofit that we've carried out. This decal only comes from a retrofit carried out under our roof, where the IMS Retrofit procedure, tooling and components were pioneered.


Quote:
If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.
If you knew what I know, that statement might not have been made.
Attached Images
   
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist

Last edited by Jake Raby; 04-23-2014 at 11:57 AM.
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2014, 01:35 PM   #17
Medicated Open-Air Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NJ
Posts: 46
Jake, while we're still on this dead horse issue.....have you seen many failures with any late 2005-2008 that have the bigger bearings? Just curious how many failures you may have scene in these years? Thanx!
BDBoxster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 04:39 AM   #18
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBoxster View Post
Jake, while we're still on this dead horse issue.....have you seen many failures with any late 2005-2008 that have the bigger bearings? Just curious how many failures you may have scene in these years? Thanx!
Yes, a few, BUT only one on the street.. The larger diameter bearings only fail on the track as a general consensus. This is where the larger diameter bearing, with its increased surface speed becomes a bad thing.

Unless its a track car, or sees the track as a DE car once and a while don't worry about it. Thats what time has taught us.
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 05:00 AM   #19
Registered User
 
truegearhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Richmond, VA (The Fan)
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
Yes, a few, BUT only one on the street.. The larger diameter bearings only fail on the track as a general consensus. This is where the larger diameter bearing, with its increased surface speed becomes a bad thing.

Unless its a track car, or sees the track as a DE car once and a while don't worry about it. Thats what time has taught us.
Sounds like its the opposite of 986 failures. 986 bearings tend to hold up on the track better than the street right? Or is this a wives tail
__________________
1997 2.5 Boxster NASA Time Trial track car
2003 911 C2
NASA HPDE Instructor
truegearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 12:20 PM   #20
Medicated Open-Air Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NJ
Posts: 46
Thanks Jake.....again!
BDBoxster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page