IMS Failure

[Porsche man]

Hi all, I expect we are all getting very tired of this subject, but I have recently purchase a 2000 Boxster S in great condition with 80k on the clock. The car has regularly been serviced and the previously owner had a new clutch installed recently by a Porsche dealer. Unfortunately the dealer did not address the IMS situation and is unable to tell me now if the IMS bearing was a single or a double.
I have read that 2000 Boxsters up to engine number 11237 have most likely have had a double IMS bearing installed.
I have also read that vehicles with double IMS bearings have only a 1 percent failure rate against those with the single bearing having a rate of approximately 8 percent
My engine number is M96 / 2167Y05233
How reliable is the information regarding the pre 11237 motors ?
It seems amazing to me that a renown company such as Porsche has no factual records of what motors have what components installed.
Hope someone can help
Cheers
Chas

[Davev]

Even with your worst case possibility - that's a 92% chance of no problem. Better odds than picking a wife!

[lkchris]

I rather think it's simply Internet legend that Porsche doesn't know which style engine is in which car.

How do you suppose they came up with the list of cars for the IMS class action settlement?
FAQs | IMS Porsche Settlement

Since my early 2001 isn't listed I'm fairly comfortable it's a dual row.

This is just USA stuff of course.

[Porsche man]

Good point you make Dave but I have been happily married for 45 years and don't aim on blowing it, Can you imagine trying to explain to a woman how it is possible to get a costly PPI and then a few months later having to spend $13,000 on an engine rebuild.
Women just don't understand these things !

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Porsche man

Hi all, I expect we are all getting very tired of this subject, but I have recently purchase a 2000 Boxster S in great condition with 80k on the clock. The car has regularly been serviced and the previously owner had a new clutch installed recently by a Porsche dealer. Unfortunately the dealer did not address the IMS situation and is unable to tell me now if the IMS bearing was a single or a double.
I have read that 2000 Boxsters up to engine number 11237 have most likely have had a double IMS bearing installed.
I have also read that vehicles with double IMS bearings have only a 1 percent failure rate against those with the single bearing having a rate of approximately 8 percent
My engine number is M96 / 2167Y05233
How reliable is the information regarding the pre 11237 motors ?
It seems amazing to me that a renown company such as Porsche has no factual records of what motors have what components installed.
Hope someone can help
Cheers
Chas

On the 2000 and 2001 cars, the only known way to correctly tell which bearing is in the car is to take it apart and look. All of the VIN number and build date lists have proven time and again to be useless.

[pjv]

Porsche Man, I think the advice given by JFP is the best you will get. I also think that even if you knew which bearing was in your car, you would still be wondering what was going to happen around the next corner, so best to get it inspected and maybe replace it while the gearbox is out. I had exactly the same concerns about my wife's reaction to a major engine rebuild as you have, and in the end she was surprisingly easy to convince that going the whole hog and installing the IMS Solution was the way to go (my car is 04 model).

[Benjamin]

Depending on how mechanically inclined you are, it is very doable to check and replace the bearing yourself. It can be done with normal tools acquired from Harbor Freight if you don't already have them. Only one specialized tool is necessary and that's the bearing puller. At the same time you would be doing a check and possible replacement of the rear main seal, transmission shaft seal, clutch, slave cylinder, and every part that you take off during the process. I did mine over the course of two weekends. I also decided that I wasn't going to take the time to drop the transmission, clutch, flywheel, and muffler only to inspect the bearing. No matter the condition, I was going to replace it since I was there.

I have a 2000 dual row. The engine number and PO paperwork indicated it should be a dual row, but I still didn't believe it 100% until I laid eyes on it.

[runjmc2]

You have all of the factors that make this a tough decision, clutch just done, mileage on the edge, and not sure if it's a single or double row. I think it comes down to a personal cost/benefit analysis. As mentioned above if you can performed the IMS replacement yourself, it's relatively low cost and likely a good investment even if for nothing more than piece of mind. If you can't and the cost is high in your area then I would compare that cost with the probability of failure and the associated cost to address it (e.g. used engine, etc....)

[seningen]

Originally Posted by Porsche man

Good point you make Dave but I have been happily married for 45 years and don't aim on blowing it, Can you imagine trying to explain to a woman how it is possible to get a costly PPI and then a few months later having to spend $13,000 on an engine rebuild.
Women just don't understand these things !

You can have a physical -- and then have a catastrophic illness.

She might not like the analogy -- but she should understand it.

Mike

[Perfectlap]

The number of ims-related engine failures where the original bearing was already replaced with a new one, be it the LNE or some other, is probably a rounding error.

I guess you can see what my advice would be. Short of simply getting it done I might look into installing the LNE Guardian in the dash that warns of impending doom.

I had my IMS replaced when it was clutch time but in retrospect I would have done it pre-emptively anyway.
You're talking about a day at the shop vs. worrying until the clutch wears out.
For me, it's simply not worth having that on my mind just to milk every last mile out of a $600 clutch part. And once you've put in a new clutch, you have a new clutch. utility.
New water pump should also be on the agenda if you're looking at the big picture.

[Porsche man]

Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.
Just as well that Porsche didn't flog their M96 motors to any light plane builders as they did with the PFM 3200 to Mooney!!
Cheers

[Davev]

Originally Posted by Porsche man

Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.
Just as well that Porsche didn't flog their M96 motors to any light plane builders as they did with the PFM 3200 to Mooney!!
Cheers

A plane motor? Now that would keep me up at nite worrying about an IMS.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Porsche man

Thanks Guys for all your input.
Looks like I will just have to bite the bullet and go for the LN upgrade.

my suggestion, don't think of it as an upgrade. Think of it as servicing your IMS with an IMSB that happens to come with some engine-saving improvements.
Just like the coolant cap and so many important things that don't last forever.

[Obertelli]

It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.

Mine is a 2002 Tiptronic, so unless something goes wrong, there's simply no routine reason to separate the transmission from the engine. So my concern is that I could end up wasting time and money only to discover that an upgraded IMSB has already been fitted by a previous owner...

Unfortunately the car didn't come with a complete service history. I could fit the Guardian but that is arguably additional wasted money if the IMSB has already been upgraded.

Ultimately, my car only cost £5400, it's a gamble but any cheap-ish 12 year old car can suffer a sudden and expensive fault which effectively writes it off. In my case, the most cost-effective solution is likely going to be frequent oil and filter changes. If mine goes kaput I'll just balance the net loss after parting out what's left of the car against the costs of fitting a proprietary IMSB solution.

IMSB failure is a worry, but if I'm going to allow that to ruin my enjoyment of the car or force me to spend a small fortune fixing something which is statistically unlikely to occur then I may as well sell up and buy a Honda s2000.

If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.

[recycledsixtie]

Originally Posted by Obertelli

It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.

Mine is a 2002 Tiptronic, so unless something goes wrong, there's simply no routine reason to separate the transmission from the engine. So my concern is that I could end up wasting time and money only to discover that an upgraded IMSB has already been fitted by a previous owner...

Unfortunately the car didn't come with a complete service history. I could fit the Guardian but that is arguably additional wasted money if the IMSB has already been upgraded.

Ultimately, my car only cost £5400, it's a gamble but any cheap-ish 12 year old car can suffer a sudden and expensive fault which effectively writes it off. In my case, the most cost-effective solution is likely going to be frequent oil and filter changes. If mine goes kaput I'll just balance the net loss after parting out what's left of the car against the costs of fitting a proprietary IMSB solution.

IMSB failure is a worry, but if I'm going to allow that to ruin my enjoyment of the car or force me to spend a small fortune fixing something which is statistically unlikely to occur then I may as well sell up and buy a Honda s2000.

If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.

OB I have sent you a pm.....

[Jake Raby]

It's unfortunate that none of the IMSB upgrade solutions provide an externally visible identifier tag.

We do… But sometimes you don't know.. What you don't know. Each of our units is serialized and matched to the VIN of the fitted vehicle along with its engine serial M designation number. This is in the door jamb of every vehicle we have ever retrofitted here at Flat 6 and is also supplied with the IMS Solution kits.

We have also used a similar decal for every standard IMS Retrofit that we've carried out. This decal only comes from a retrofit carried out under our roof, where the IMS Retrofit procedure, tooling and components were pioneered.

If I'd spent a few grand more on a newer model I'd probably decide that the additional investment was worthwhile.

If you knew what I know, that statement might not have been made.

[BDBoxster]

Jake, while we're still on this dead horse issue.....have you seen many failures with any late 2005-2008 that have the bigger bearings? Just curious how many failures you may have scene in these years? Thanx!

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by BDBoxster

Jake, while we're still on this dead horse issue.....have you seen many failures with any late 2005-2008 that have the bigger bearings? Just curious how many failures you may have scene in these years? Thanx!

Yes, a few, BUT only one on the street.. The larger diameter bearings only fail on the track as a general consensus. This is where the larger diameter bearing, with its increased surface speed becomes a bad thing.

Unless its a track car, or sees the track as a DE car once and a while don't worry about it. Thats what time has taught us.

[truegearhead]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Yes, a few, BUT only one on the street.. The larger diameter bearings only fail on the track as a general consensus. This is where the larger diameter bearing, with its increased surface speed becomes a bad thing.

Unless its a track car, or sees the track as a DE car once and a while don't worry about it. Thats what time has taught us.

Sounds like its the opposite of 986 failures. 986 bearings tend to hold up on the track better than the street right? Or is this a wives tail

[BDBoxster]

Thanks Jake.....again!