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Old 08-06-2013, 10:49 AM   #1
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Knowledge is power.

Recently I got blasted pretty good by a few members for trying to find out what company made the oem water pumps for Porsche. Some thought it was petty and I should just trust the Porsche dealer to sell me what I need and not worry about researching the mfg.
If you are going to drive one of these cars you better acquire all the knowledge you can for self protection.
3 years ago My 996 C4 died on a PCA outing. I had it towed to the Nearest Independent German shop ( my towing package pays only to the nearest shop available). This is a well respected Porsche certifies mechanic, not a jackleg under a tree. This was on Saturday afternoon. Monday morning I called the shop and told him it had just made a lot of noise and quit. He called me back a few hours later and told me it was an IMSB failure and I needed a new engine and he quoted me about $22K. I quizzed him about the IMSB problem since That was my first water cooled Porsche and was not at all informed about the problem. I also requested that he check and see if Porsche would cover any part of it since he said it was a weak point in those engines. He called back and said no. Since I was not sure I wanted to spend that kind of money, I took a trailer and brought the car home. His bill for the diagnosis was $270 for 3 hours labor.
After a month of reflection I decided to go ahead with a new engine and I assumed all things considered that having it done at a Porsche dealer would be best since there was a 2 year warranty and they would be better suited to do the work. I checked 3 dealers and settled on the one that could do it quickly and was also $3K cheaper than want I was initially quoted. I also had them check with Porsche about covering some of it . They also said no dise. Got it done and all was well except I am put $19K.
Now, since then there has been the lawsuit and settlement which I am in line for as I fit all the criteria, so I started filling all the papers. They also require that you submit proof of an IMSB failure. When I look at my receipts I find that The Indy that initially did the diagnosis had put only that there was metal in the filter and I needed a new engine. When I called him and told him the problem he let me know that he was pissed off that I had taken it somewhere else for the engine swap and he would not verify anything. I then looked at the dealer invoice and it said only that customer needs new engine and it was changed. So guess what, even though We have a settlement I can't prove I qualify. Since I was not informed about the IMSB and didn't know a settlement was in the future, I am still screwed. Wonder how many IMSB problems slip thru like this.
This is why I want information and appreciate what I learn here. I Trusted an Indy and a dealer and found out you still have to know as much or more than they do to protect yourself. They have their interests in mind more than yours. Information is power.

Last edited by mountainman; 08-06-2013 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:46 AM   #2
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1) So, who makes our water pumps?

2) Why won't the Porsche dealership give you the IMSB info now?

3) That should really be at least 3 paragraphs, not 1.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:47 AM   #3
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Mountainman, I agree that knowledge is power and frankly, can't see how it would hurt if we could find out who the OEM supplier is to Porsche for waterpumps. As to your problem with the IMSB, it is unfortunate that your diagnosis refers only to 'metal in the oil filter'. However, if all he did was remove your filter and drain the oil, how did you end up with 3 hours of labour???? You might wish to advise him that unless you receive a written diagnosis confirming what you were originally advised, that you will be consulting a lawyer (as again, draining the oil wouldn't be 1 hour of labour, let alone 3). That, or moving directly to a letter from a lawyer may get him to do the right thing....

You might also wish to speak to the dealership, as they should try to cooperate in view of the size of the bill - ie., its no loss for them if Porsche pays a portion of the replacement cost. If it was not the IMS, then they should be able to tell you what is was, should they not?

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Old 08-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #4
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Mountainman, I agree that knowledge is power and frankly, can't see how it would hurt if we could find out who the OEM supplier is to Porsche for waterpumps. As to your problem with the IMSB, it is unfortunate that your diagnosis refers only to 'metal in the oil filter'. However, if all he did was remove your filter and drain the oil, how did you end up with 3 hours of labour???? You might wish to advise him that unless you receive a written diagnosis confirming what you were originally advised, that you will be consulting a lawyer (as again, draining the oil wouldn't be 1 hour of labour, let alone 3). That, or moving directly to a letter from a lawyer may get him to do the right thing....

You might also wish to speak to the dealership, as they should try to cooperate in view of the size of the bill - ie., its no loss for them if Porsche pays a portion of the replacement cost. If it was not the IMS, then they should be able to tell you what is was, should they not?

Brad
I agree - as I read this I am thinking...did the dealer even look to diagnose the problem or did the dealer just take mountainmans word for it. Metal in the filter is not always an IMSB issue and 3 hours of labor to pull a filter? that takes oh about 3 minutes from lift time to looking at filter.

Did the P Dealer look into your motor and diagnose it or just say - this guy wants a new motor so give it to him?

I feel terrible you are out that money. The P Dealer should be able to tell you WHY the were replacing the motor though...
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:57 AM   #5
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I'd bet a number of claimants will find themselves in a similar situation - the documentation doesn't explicitly state the reason the engine needed replacing. Before giving up, I'd suggest a trying a few things.

First, call the dealer, explain the lack of explicit documentation needed for the settlement, and ask if they would be willing to provide what you need. If the dealer says no, then try the following.

Second, spend a few bucks consulting a negligence lawyer. Perhaps the lawyer would be willing to contact the independent shop and tell him that you "detrimentally relied" on his original diagnosis of an IMSB failure when you incurred the cost to replace the engine. It doesn't matter that the independent didn't do the actual replacement because you paid him for a professional diagnosis. The lawyer might then tell the independent if he is unwilling to fully document his original diagnosis, you may not be able to collect what your due under the settlement. Then the lawyer might go on to say that if you don't collect because the independent won't document what he told you originally you will seek to collect the lost settlement amount from him. Perhaps the independent will get over himself then and do what's right.

I have no idea whe this strategy will work, but it's worth a try given how much you spent replacing the engine. If nothing else, file what you have and hope that the documentation is enough.

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Old 08-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #6
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I have spoken to the service person at the dealership and she of course remembers the whole deal and is going to type up a letter to enclose with the paperwork clarifying the cause of the failure. Hopefully it will be explicit enough to satisfy the lawyers. I can't help but feel that there may be a larger IMSB problem than their percentages show due to many being replaced without it being attributed to the IMSB. When the dealer changed it we discussed that that was the cause of the failure, but they did not show me anything and I do not know what disassembly or diagnosis they did and at the time I did not know the relavent questions to ask and had given up on getting any relief from Porsche. If I had been privy to this forum prior to the failure I would have been much more knowledgable although since the law suit had not been filed at that time maybe no better off. I am certainly getting more more skeptical and careful and less trusting.
If anyone is tempted to use German Motor Works in Asheville, nc I absolutely advise against it. He either charged me 3 hours labor for the 5 minutes it took to pull the filter and find metal in it and did nothing else or he did 3 hours of comprehensive diagnosis and failed to record it and is so pissed off about not getting an overpriced engine swap that he is intentionally screwing me.
The engine swap is not something I would have tackled myself, but the whole experience has made me even more determined to do as much of my own maintenance as possible and to learn as much about my cars as I can.

Last edited by mountainman; 08-06-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:40 PM   #7
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Hindsight being 20/20, I'll bet you made the right call with the dealership many years ago for your IMSB. The dealership will have a lot more pull and influence over this lawsuit than an indy shop would have. Especially with your late/lacking documentation.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:52 PM   #8
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sounds like you may be making some headway...that is good. I hope you get reimbursed for this. Get as much documentation as possible from both indy and p dealer. I cant remember time lines on the class action suit or what year cars it handles, but I wish you the best of luck!
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Flavor 987S View Post
Hindsight being 20/20, I'll bet you made the right call with the dealership many years ago for your IMSB. The dealership will have a lot more pull and influence over this lawsuit than an indy shop would have. Especially with your late/lacking documentation.
I try to use dealers any time I can for that reason Unless their prices are absolutely off the charts, which they are on occasion, but I figure they have access to the best parts and information available. I still would rather do it myself and still want all the information I can get so I can make informed decisions. In spite of thevery sketchy information on the invoice, this dealership has always done me right and if they had not been over a hundred miles away from where the car died I would have had it towed there initially instead of the Indy. Hopefully their relationship with Porsche and the fact that they see all 3 of my porsches from time to time will help.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:01 PM   #10
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Will the dealership documents need to be notorized?
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:24 PM   #11
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sounds like you may be making some headway...that is good. I hope you get reimbursed for this. Get as much documentation as possible from both indy and p dealer. I cant remember time lines on the class action suit or what year cars it handles, but I wish you the best of luck!
That was my intent. I was going to get the indy and the dealer to both provide some more documentation, but I see that the indy isn't going to do anything but hopefully what I get from the dealer will do it. I want as many of the ducks in a row before I send it in. If they reject it then it will be very difficult to get it turned around, so got to make the 1st try with everything I caN GET.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:32 PM   #12
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Will the dealership documents need to be notorized?
Not sure, but since they are in essence an agent of Porsche, I would assume it would be very easy for Porsche to communicate with them as to authenticity. But since all this is being handled by lawyers, they can probably screw it up. I will ask when I pick them up.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:38 PM   #13
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Montainman, for my two cents worth I would recommend you inform the independent mechanic of the situation and stress to him one thing ... regardless of whether he provides the information or not you will let the independent Porsche community know what he did, or failed to do, so that other members will know where to take, or not take, their business. As an independent community we - as consumers - rely on first hand experience of independent mechanics to determine where our business goes.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:54 PM   #14
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It would be shocking if the people administering the settlement rejected your claim given proper IMS failure documentation by a Porsche dealership. If the service representative comes through as you describe, you should be fine. Just make sure you fill out the claim form completely and provide exactly what your asked to provide.

PS: IIRC the claim form does not require you to notarize your proof of an IMS failure. .

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:00 PM   #15
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Montainman, for my two cents worth I would recommend you inform the independent mechanic of the situation and stress to him one thing ... regardless of whether he provides the information or not you will let the independent Porsche community know what he did, or failed to do, so that other members will know where to take, or not take, their business. As an independent community we - as consumers - rely on first hand experience of independent mechanics to determine where our business goes.
I have already done that in my conversation with him today. He is so bitter because I didn't bring it back to him and pay $3K more to get the engine done that that is all he wants to talk about. He thinks I screwed him by going somewhere else so now he wants to screw me. I will sing his praises every chance I get and I know a lot of Porsche owners.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:56 PM   #16
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So who makes Porsche water pumps?
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:12 PM   #17
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Will the dealership documents need to be notorized?
Notary Publics do nothing more that authenticate signatures during the signing.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #18
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to reveal who this "indy shop" is, so other members won't make the mistake of enlisting their services in the the future. Knowledge is power right ?
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #19
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to reveal who this "indy shop" is, so other members won't make the mistake of enlisting their services in the the future. Knowledge is power right ?
German motorworks in Asheville...it is in one of his posts
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:51 PM   #20
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German motorworks in Asheville...it is in one of his posts
Gee, I must have missed it ?
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