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Old 07-22-2013, 12:02 PM   #1
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do caymens have ims issue?

i know it boxster forum,just wondering ?

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Old 07-22-2013, 12:09 PM   #2
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I believe the Cayman has the IMS bearing inclusive of up to 2008 just like the Boxster. 2009 and newer Cayman and Boxsters do not have IMS bearings. Others will have their opinions on this. Basically the Cayman is a Boxster with a roof and most of the internal mechanical components are the same.

I am waiting a few years until the 2009 Cayman is in my price range for that very reason.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:34 PM   #3
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I believe the Cayman has the IMS bearing inclusive of up to 2008 just like the Boxster. 2009 and newer Cayman and Boxsters do not have IMS bearings. Others will have their opinions on this. Basically the Cayman is a Boxster with a roof and most of the internal mechanical components are the same.

I am waiting a few years until the 2009 Cayman is in my price range for that very reason.
Yes, same issues. Same motors in Boxster, Cayman and 996 up until 2009...
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:29 PM   #4
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I believe the Cayman has the IMS bearing inclusive of up to 2008 just like the Boxster. 2009 and newer Cayman and Boxsters do not have IMS bearings. Others will have their opinions on this. Basically the Cayman is a Boxster with a roof and most of the internal mechanical components are the same.

I am waiting a few years until the 2009 Cayman is in my price range for that very reason.
one caveat on these engines, the 987.2 Cayman is missing some important upgrades that were made to the 3.8 Carrera (and 3.6 by default) engine blocks. No love for the mid-engines.
So you might want to be looking at LOW mileage 987.2 Caymans and Boxsters. Pick your 987.1 vs. 987.2 poison. Me, I like the one with lowest cost to address/upgrade.

Porsche is always coming up with new ways to screw anyone not buying GT3 which is not to say the GT3 doesn't have some pricey issues looming as well.
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #5
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Short answer is yes look at Planet 9 you'll find the same paranoia.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:07 PM   #6
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OK guys, lets get our stories straight.

The 987.1 (2005-2008 Boxster & 2006-2008 Cayman) have an IMS bearing.

In mid-yr 2005, Porsche began using a redesigned IMSB. A 2005 Boxster may have either design depending on the build date. I believe the change over to the new design was approx Mar 2005. The old design is easy to replace, the new design requires the engine halves to be split in order to replace the IMSB.

In 2006, Porsche introduced the M97 engine in the 987 line (the 986 has an M96 engine). The M97 had the new IMSB design introduced in mid-2005. That design stayed in production until the 987.2 was introduced in MY 2009. The 987.2 does not have an IMS or IMSB.

The new design IMSB has a much lower failure rate than the IMSB used from 2000-mid 2005. As usual, there are no solid numbers to go off of, but the consensus is the new design fails at a 1% rate vs the old at 10%.

That's why the IMS lawsuit only includes Boxsters to mid-2005. The new design does not fail enough to be included. Caymans were not part of the lawsuit because they all have the M97 engine.

So if you sweat over a 1% chance of something failing, then get a 987.2. You'll probably have a better chance of a waterpump failure in a 987.1 Cayman than an IMSB.

The only angst on P-9 is from early 2005 Boxster owners who didn't change out their IMSB to Jake's design before theirs shot craps. Or someone whipping up the hysteria who doesn't know the whole story.

Buy a Cayman and enjoy it. I own two 987 Ss and I sleep well at night.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:28 AM   #7
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The new design IMSB has a much lower failure rate than the IMSB used from 2000-mid 2005. As usual, there are no solid numbers to go off of, but the consensus is the new design fails at a 1% rate vs the old at 10%.

That's why the IMS lawsuit only includes Boxsters to mid-2005. The new design does not fail enough to be included. Caymans were not part of the lawsuit because they all have the M97 engine.

So if you sweat over a 1% chance of something failing, then get a 987.2
.
Yes but once out of warranty, there's no cost-effective way to replace the new IMSB short of splitting the engine apart yourself. And no 1% bearing lasts forever, even if you remove one of the seals to allow for more oil flow. And this is not just any old bearing like those in your wheels...
general mechanical engineering principles would suggest that a service-able bearing should be replaced at a regular interval. I'm baffled as to what Porsche's "plan B" was here for out-of warranty cars. the Willy Wonka ever-lasting engine bearing? If you get rid of cars every year or two, unlikely to be issue.

Whereas with the old IMBS bearing, it's a very straightforward extraction everytime you change the clutch. Or, if you go with the LNE solution to replace the old bearing type, you eliminate the whole bearing issue just like the 987.2.

In other words, if you intend to own a 987.1 Cayman, Boxster or Carrera with the new m97 bearing long-term, you've got a problem with no solution ahead of you. Best to save up for the 987.2 Cayman/Carrera/Boxster or score a better deal on a 987.1 Boxster/Carrera which has already had the IMBS addressed (the sure bet way you know if it has a serviceable bearing or not). Don't know where that leaves the 987.1 Cayman since I gather the last of the old style IMSB's were gone by late 2005.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:30 AM   #8
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Do Porsche dealers replace the OEM factory given IMS with a new OEM IMS in the early single row models or do they tell you to drive the car as is? Just curious, I have never seen anything on it. I am not sure a P dealer does preventative maintenance like that do they?

if so, for the cars up to 2005 single row - is it as easy as the LN Engineering replacement with an OEM bearing...meaning pull out old and stick in new or does the Porsche OEM version still have to split the case for single row?

Clear as mud?
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:33 PM   #9
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I think what you're asking is can the old m96 OEM IMS bearing be swapped like an aftermarket IMS bearing? I don't see why it couldn't and many probably have done this for whatever reason. Most go with the LNE or less expensive Pelican replacement bearing for sure.

But given the lengths LNE and Flat6 went to in order to come up with this solution, including inventing a tool to extract the bearing (that's one thing to patent for sure), then I'm guessing such tools weren't readily available in the black market of Porsche tech tools. Which must mean the Porsche mechanics never bothered to pull out only the old bearings, must have always been part of the taking down the whole engine to do their hush hush thing.

It's really amazing when you think about it. I can't think of another instance where the aftermarket figured out something that allowed the customer to make a crucial engine modification without 1- pulling the engine 2- at a cost under $1K (if using the Pelican imsb). While the actual car maker sat back and said "IMS failure what IMS failure"?
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:01 PM   #10
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Do Porsche dealers replace the OEM factory given IMS with a new OEM IMS in the early single row models or do they tell you to drive the car as is? Just curious, I have never seen anything on it. I am not sure a P dealer does preventative maintenance like that do they?

if so, for the cars up to 2005 single row - is it as easy as the LN Engineering replacement with an OEM bearing...meaning pull out old and stick in new or does the Porsche OEM version still have to split the case for single row?

Clear as mud?
Porsche dealers do/did not do anything; if the bearing failed, the engine was replaced, either under warranty if you had one, or at the owner's expense. Porsche also never admitted that it was possible to change out the IMS bearing without taking the engine apart.

From 1998 to 2004, it was possible to replace the bearings (single or double row); starting in 2005, the "final solution" IMS bearing cannot be changed out without totally rebuilding the engine. LN has an upgraded shaft with a ceramic tripled row for the 2005 and on cars, but very few were ever done because of the cost of the rebuild.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:22 PM   #11
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one caveat on these engines, the 987.2 Cayman is missing some important upgrades that were made to the 3.8 Carrera (and 3.6 by default) engine blocks. No love for the mid-engines.

Sorry, what? The 2.9 engine isn't DFI, but all the 9A1-based engines (so all 987.2 and 997.s wet sump engines) have no IMS, have closed deck bores and revised cooling.

What exactly is it you think the 'mid-engine' models are missing?
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:11 PM   #12
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And no 1% bearing lasts forever, even if you remove one of the seals to allow for more oil flow. And this is not just any old bearing like those in your wheels...
general mechanical engineering principles would suggest that a service-able bearing should be replaced at a regular interval.
Good points. I asked Jake a while back what it would cost to replace the M97 IMSB. He said approx $4K. That's about the difference in current price between an 08 and 09 CS.


Trimer - As Jeff said, Porsche used to replace the blown engine with a new one. However, the new engine contained the same flawed IMSB as the previous one, so the crap shoot started all over again. Many Porsche dealers are now authorized to do the LN replacement.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:02 AM   #13
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I expect to looking at a 2005-2006 997 in the next few years and want to be sure I get the updated IMSB design. For the 2005 mid-year design upgrade, is that a M96 or M97? Asked another way, was the IMSB design upgrade only applied to the M97, or first in the M96 for a short period of time in 2005?

If the upgrade was in the M96 in 2005, that would obviously make it more difficult to determine which 2005's had the upgrade. In that case, can the VINs in the class action suit be trusted in this regard (e.g. if the VIN is not on the list, it is the upgraded IMSB design)

Thanks and sorry for taking a bit off topic
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:25 AM   #14
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I expect to looking at a 2005-2006 997 in the next few years and want to be sure I get the updated IMSB design. For the 2005 mid-year design upgrade, is that a M96 or M97? Asked another way, was the IMSB design upgrade only applied to the M97, or first in the M96 for a short period of time in 2005?

If the upgrade was in the M96 in 2005, that would obviously make it more difficult to determine which 2005's had the upgrade. In that case, can the VINs in the class action suit be trusted in this regard (e.g. if the VIN is not on the list, it is the upgraded IMSB design)

Thanks and sorry for taking a bit off topic
The "final solution" IMS began to appear in model year 2005. Unfortunately, the only way to know that a 2005 engine has this unserviceable design bearing is to pull the trans and clutch out, and look at the IMS center bolt. If it is 22MM, it is the last design bearing. There is no other known way to find out.

And just as a "by-the-by" the last design IMS fails as well, so it is no assurance of not having a problem.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:02 AM   #15
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very very good info in this thread!!

Thank you Husker for a thorough explanation

What many do not discuss with the 05.5 and up M97 engines? The bearing is MUCH MUCH bigger than the M96 bearings (I mean diameter bigger) which means it turns at a lower rpm than the M96 bearing (it's already turning half of crankshaft speed) + it has more ball bearings!!

I haven't seen a failure of this larger M97 bearing (yet) and I have had 8-10 of them come through the shop (engines) and 15-20 987/Cayman customers.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:35 AM   #16
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Sorry, what? The 2.9 engine isn't DFI, but all the 9A1-based engines (so all 987.2 and 997.s wet sump engines) have no IMS, have closed deck bores and revised cooling.

What exactly is it you think the 'mid-engine' models are missing?
must have been off my meds. Got my Caymans wrong. 987.1 Caymans did not get m97 updates found on the m97 Carreras.

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I haven't seen a failure of this larger M97 bearing (yet) and I have had 8-10 of them come through the shop (engines) and 15-20 987/Cayman customers.
But we also haven't yet seen a huge number of m97 Cayman and Carrera with really high mileage either. One of the reasons Porsche is near the top of the reliability rankings is due to low mileage, only the Cayenne sees consistent daily driving among its owners. As a class, Cayman, Carrera, Boxsters take over a decade to see high mileage...precisely when they start becoming affordable to most with more limited budgets. Once these new bearings start going well north of 100K miles and they start to become really contaminated/dry out/under-perform and the then current owner opts not to spend the considerable amount of money to crack open the engine to swap out the old m97 IMSB for fresh one, what's going to become of these engines? I really can't think of any reason that these bearings are going to sit still in the engine forever. Fahrvergnügen?
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:25 AM   #17
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Perfect?

I have multiple 987 customers with over 100k on them. Most are in the 80k range right now.

This is SoCal. We driver our cars We don't own a *winter* car or have *winter* tires

Now that I think back, I have at least 2 in the 115k range.

My Texas shop owners have all reported 987's well into the 90k+ range.

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Old 07-26-2013, 12:02 PM   #18
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I prefer to look at the IMSB in the larger context of the "system" (e.g. engine). While the single row could realistically be considered the "weak link" in those engines, that does not seem to be the case for the M97. If/when I own one there will be many other things I will worry about (e.g. weak link) before the IMSB.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #19
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Now that I think back, I have at least 2 in the 115k range.
That's sort of my point. You're running a shop and even then you only see a handful north of 100K. It's too early to give the m97 IMSB the all clear since, and this is the important part, most are still in their reasonable life expectancy period.
Firgure the m96 single row that fails, under suboptimal care/use, was only good for ~50-70K or less, I would presume that the m97 bearing would be good for double at most? Probably less since once the bearing is contaminated, neglected for too long, the drop-off comes quickly.

The other issues seems to be, as you point out, your cars are actively driven by its owners. Will an m97 IMSB that was driven meekly, short shifted, etc. and sat for long periods (typical Porsche usage), fare as well once the bearing is long past the 'sell by date' -- and ALL bearings have one. In other words, m97 IMSB's seem to be doing a good job during their life expectancy, but the overwhelming majority of these non-serviceable bearings will not be retired when they should be.

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