Handbrake or not with MT

[WhipE350]

There is an interesting conversation on another forum that I festered about using a handbrake or not on hill starts with a MT. I know how to use the method if I’m in a serious pickle and can’t take any chance of possibly rolling back but other than that I never need the handbrake to start on a hill with MT. Apparently many in America learned and use this handbrake method exclusively and in Europe it seems to be the norm.

I’m just curious what my friends over here do. Some folks have questioned that it is an issue of coordination, though I think it is a learned preference.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

There is an interesting conversation on another forum that I festered about using a handbrake or not on hill starts with a MT. I know how to use the method if I’m in a serious pickle and can’t take any chance of possibly rolling back but other than that I never need the handbrake to start on a hill with MT. Apparently many in America learned and use this handbrake method exclusively and in Europe it seems to be the norm.

I’m just curious what my friends over here do. Some folks have questioned that it is an issue of coordination, though I think it is a learned preference.

Despite how much fun it is to buy & install clutches I still prefer to minimize clutch wear anyway I can. Just 1 way I'm going green for the environment.

[AKnowles]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

I’m just curious what my friends over here do. Some folks have questioned that it is an issue of coordination, though I think it is a learned preference.

I only use the hand brake when parking. Period. Anyone that requires a hand brake to get started on a hill should not drive a vehicle with a manual transmission. Or should just buy a Subaru or similar vehicle that has the ability to prevent roll back on an incline.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if someone can't drive a stick properly then they have no business in a car with one either.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by AKnowles

I only use the hand brake when parking. Period. Anyone that requires a hand brake to get started on a hill should not drive a vehicle with a manual transmission. Or should just buy a Subaru or similar vehicle that has the ability to prevent roll back on an incline.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if someone can't drive a stick properly then they have no business in a car with one either.

The argument is these are skilled drivers and some even track their cars but they learned the handbrake method. The discussion started because the new 981 MT has a hill hold feature and some folks really don't like it and I can see why. Mine is a PDK so no worry there, on my 986 MT I never use handbrake.

I personally think Porsche made a mistake with this feature on MT.

[recycledsixtie]

If you are starting from a stop on a steep hill say at a traffic light and you have a car behind you I see nothing wrong with a combination use of handbrake, clutch and gas pedal. Allowing the car to roll back is not an option. I do whatever it takes to drive away smoothly.

[jb92563]

I have never had to use the handbrake for this purpose but there's no reason not to if the circumstances call for it.

or

You could get out of your car and ask the person behind you to back up 5' since your car is a manual and may roll back a few feet on a steep hill.

The handbrake also came in handy during the performance driving school to induce the car to spin out in a tight curve on soapy wet pavement.

Later on I learned how to spin the car on dry pavement without using the hand brake

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by jb92563

You could get out of your car and ask the person behind you to back up 5' since your car is a manual and may roll back a few feet on a steep hill.

But then you would have to use the handbrake LOL...or well you could turn the car off and just leave it in 1st

[fatmike]

Originally Posted by AKnowles

I only use the hand brake when parking. Period. Anyone that requires a hand brake to get started on a hill should not drive a vehicle with a manual transmission. Or should just buy a Subaru or similar vehicle that has the ability to prevent roll back on an incline.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if someone can't drive a stick properly then they have no business in a car with one either.

Really? I've got close to a quarter of a million miles driven on a manual. I use my handbrake almost every day when starting up from a stop on a 22% grade near my house.

It's not unusual for a person behind me to stop entirely too close, then inch up with their automatic. I sometimes intentionally allow the car to drift backwards to serve notice not to come any closer.

For reference, the hill is steep enough that it's difficult to even walk up.



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[Jedi]

UNKIKE AKnowles, I generally wait to have the vehicle parked before setting the parking brake, where he says he uses it while parking, must be a hand brake turn or something to that effect. I know when I was younger and drove semis for a living you were instructed to use the trailer brake when on a hill to prevent rollback. It is just common sense to release the brakes whether it be a hand brake or a trailer brake while your feet are on the clutch and throttle. This is the way I have always done it and do not have a problem doing it in my Boxster, if and when I have premature clutch failure I'll be the first to let the forum know.

[kk2002s]

I learned to drive on a manual and have had manual cars since (30+ years)
I kinda of feel stupid that I never even thought the handbrake would be used for that reason. I think it was an episode of Top Gear where I saw them do that. Needless to say I have always just done the hill thing with a quick off the brake on the throttle, clutch release.
I have tried the Handbrake/hill a couple of times since I got the P-car.
I have to teach myself to do it right. I'm pretty bad at coordinating it all now,
I find I use a lot more throttle and slower clutch release using the handbrake.
That translates to more wear.
I think it should be part of a drivers skill inventory but you have to practice.

[EssexPorsche]

All those 'non handbrake users' would fail your driving test in the UK.
Its mandatory!

Things have changed a little since i passed. When i started driving, the car had to be in neutral and hadbrake applied in any stationary situation including traffic and stoplight.

The reason is, if someone rear ends the queue, everyone will hit everyone.
The impact will jar your feet off the pedals, the car will lunge and stall. From there on in its like dominos. 10 cars with damage instead ofr maybe 3.
Multiple claims, multiple liabilities.
Also at a stoplight...if the lead car lurches forward due to rear end collision, pedestrians could get hurt.

Secondly holding a car on the cluch WILL dispose of your clutch in a much shorter time frame.

Letting an auto hold itself WLL destroy the torque convertor (or equivalent) in a much shorter time frame.

Finally @2003s, i sensed some humour in your comment - as i have to say if you rolled back into my car...for whatever reason.... I'd be rolling up on you! ya dig.

The skill is knowing when to use it and when not, combining all levels of control and coordination to provide the best driving experience whilst attempting to mitigate damage to others (cars and people) and prolonge the car's components.

I wonder if THStone had his parking brake applied when his car was rear ended!?

[thstone]

I have never needed to use the handbrake to prevent rollback when starting on a hill. At the end of the day, I suppose that you should use whatever tools or technique it takes to get the job done.

[AKnowles]

OK, for clarification - parking meant the process of - meaning the hand brake was not used until the car was at a complete stop. And I suppose there are exceptions related to safety, but I'll stick with my view that using a hand brake in a car with a MT as a matter of general use is just plain wrong.

It takes a bit more skill to get a vehicle moving up a hill without using the parking brake, but that's all it is. And if one lacks the skill to do so, shouldn't drive a MT. Or if they must, then they should get a vehicle with a hill assist. Subaru had one quite a ways back. I used it a couple of times on very stepp hills on my Outback Sport, but can't say I really liked it or needed it. Now Porsche has one too. It's sad to see these types of features put in a MT transmission car in the first place. To me, it follows the same principle as a PDK only Porsche. It does make the vehicle more available to the masses - got that - but it detracts from the feel, the interaction, and the skill required to drive the vehicle. That just takes all the fun out of it for me and places it back it in the label of just transportation.

BTW: One of the other reasons for having this view is having had someone roll back on to you at a hill because they couldn't control their vehicle without using the hand brake. If it happens to you, then you too may change your mind about using a hand brake on a hill as a general rule.

[WhipE350]

What started the whole conversation on the other forum was how poorly some feel the hill assist works on the new 981 MT. Not sure if Porsche was trying to open up MT to a whole new generation or was just trying to help those that do use the handbrake.

[cas951]

Originally Posted by AKnowles

OK, for clarification - parking meant the process of - meaning the hand brake was not used until the car was at a complete stop. And I suppose there are exceptions related to safety, but I'll stick with my view that using a hand brake in a car with a MT as a matter of general use is just plain wrong.

It takes a bit more skill to get a vehicle moving up a hill without using the parking brake, but that's all it is. And if one lacks the skill to do so, shouldn't drive a MT. Or if they must, then they should get a vehicle with a hill assist. Subaru had one quite a ways back. I used it a couple of times on very stepp hills on my Outback Sport, but can't say I really liked it or needed it. Now Porsche has one too. It's sad to see these types of features put in a MT transmission car in the first place. To me, it follows the same principle as a PDK only Porsche. It does make the vehicle more available to the masses - got that - but it detracts from the feel, the interaction, and the skill required to drive the vehicle. That just takes all the fun out of it for me and places it back it in the label of just transportation.

BTW: One of the other reasons for having this view is having had someone roll back on to you at a hill because they couldn't control their vehicle without using the hand brake. If it happens to you, then you too may change your mind about using a hand brake on a hill as a general rule.

I think you're a little harsh here. I do use this method and I use it for the safety of my car and other cars behind me. For you to say those that don't have this skill should be driving a Subaru or other cars with roll back assist. To add that we should not be driving a car with manual trans is just plain wrong.

Besides, what's wrong with using the hand brake to prevent roll back? Are you always so perfect that a slip will never happen to you? If we're one of these drivers that fall into this category why should we not be driving a manual? Have you ever been to SF and drive through some of the hills there?

I will not claim to be the great driver like you with exceptional skills to drive a manual trans but I've driven various types of cars, trucks and heavy equipment to include Military recovery vehicles (M88). That's what 25 years of Military experience for you and being in charge of of a Maintenance Battalion.

[Overdrive]

I don't really use the method myself, though I can understand why some would do it. There is one rather large hill with a traffic signal at the crest on my commute where any vehicle will roll back because of the incline. I know this to be true because whether it's the Boxster, a Corolla (automatic), a Jeep (automatic), a Cavalier (automatic), or my motorcycle, I have rolled back on this hill while driving any of them when I am not engaging the brakes. And despite this happening to any vehicle that doesn't have some sort of hill assit feature, jerky people always seem to want to get right up behind you, within inches of your bumper. When I see them start to creep up I let the car slip back a few inches as a warning, but that doesn't always work and some just keep coming. So I either have to launch a bit harder than I'd like, or risk having some idiot in a crappy rust bucket, or soccer mom in an SUV she can't get into without climbing up the tire, tap my bumper and create a situation I'd rather avoid.

To me this has nothing to do with my skill in driving a manual transmission vehicle, but everything to do with the situational awareness, or lack thereof, of the other driver(s). If I can't help rolling back even just one inch on this hill no matter what I'm driving, and an inch is all some idiot left between me and them, that's a crappy situation no matter how skilled I may be, and I more often than not have the more expensive car to fix in the case of driving the Boxster should someone end up in my bumper.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

I don't really use the method myself, though I can understand why some would do it. There is one rather large hill with a traffic signal at the crest on my commute where any vehicle will roll back because of the incline. I know this to be true because whether it's the Boxster, a Corolla (automatic), a Jeep (automatic), a Cavalier (automatic), or my motorcycle, I have rolled back on this hill while driving any of them when I am not engaging the brakes. And despite this happening to any vehicle that doesn't have some sort of hill assit feature, jerky people always seem to want to get right up behind you, within inches of your bumper. When I see them start to creep up I let the car slip back a few inches as a warning, but that doesn't always work and some just keep coming. So I either have to launch a bit harder than I'd like, or risk having some idiot in a crappy rust bucket, or soccer mom in an SUV she can't get into without climbing up the tire, tap my bumper and create a situation I'd rather avoid.

To me this has nothing to do with my skill in driving a manual transmission vehicle, but everything to do with the situational awareness, or lack thereof, of the other driver(s). If I can't help rolling back even just one inch on this hill no matter what I'm driving, and an inch is all some idiot left between me and them, that's a crappy situation no matter how skilled I may be, and I more often than not have the more expensive car to fix in the case of driving the Boxster should someone end up in my bumper.

Yup totally agree, for all of us there probably is a time an place for it no matter what your everyday preference is.

[jb92563]

I have to agree that the latest generation is completely devoid of situational awareness, partially due to electronic device distraction, inexperience and chronic ADD.

It has never been easier to pull the wool over the sheeps eyes and take advantage of them.
I can appreciate the comparison of Americas future with the Movie Idiocracy, the two seem to be merging at an accelerated rate and we could arrive there in 2 more generations.

Jeez, from a generation of hard working Enterprising and Inventive people to a herd of dumb founded lazy sheep in 200 years. What the heck happened????

[fatmike]

Originally Posted by jb92563

What the heck happened????

Cell phones. Actually - texting while driving.



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[Overdrive]

Too easy to blame phones. It's part that people feel they're more capable than they really are of multitasking between drivingn and any number of things: talking/texting/otherwise fiddling with their phone, eating, fixing hair, reading, playing with the radio and HVAC controls, putting on makeup, carrying on a conversation...and plenty beyond that. The other part is the automakers and government entities that force the automakers to add in all sorts of "safety" features and devices, which just serves to make people drive more recklessly thinking they can now defeat physics, and that they can do more things they normally wouldn't while driving because they think the car will try to save them.

How many of those invincible 4WD SUVs, for those of you who live in places that experience winter weather, do you see flipped over or otherwise involved in some sort of accident in incliment weather? And just the same, how often do you see the same vehicles, and others that tout being so much safer because of AWD, ABS, ESC, PSM, etc., mangled and thrown off the road because physics finally said "Ok, buddy, you've had enough"?

People also just don't care and don't realize that once they aren't 100% committed to driving their vehicle safely and attentively, they're now piloting a deadly weapon...poorly, at that. Don't even get me started on seeing, on a daily basis, officers of the law driving with one hand and gluing their phone to their ear with the other for hours on end.

Operating a motorcycle enlightened me to just how horrible our drivers are, and made me a defensive driver on the street no matter what I'm operating.