What is going on with 986 and 996 prices?

[thstone]

We're seeing 996 prices dropping under $20K and 986 prices going below $10K. Why doesn't the 986/996 get the same love as the earlier 993 or later 997 cars?

Are the first water pumpers really that bad? Is it all IMS-related? Where does it end?

[pothole]

Originally Posted by thstone

We're seeing 996 prices dropping under $20K and 986 prices going below $10K. Why doesn't the 986/996 get the same love as the earlier 993 or later 997 cars?

Are the first water pumpers really that bad? Is it all IMS-related? Where does it end?

It's purely an age and numbers thing.

They built plenty of them and they're getting old. But not old enough to be classics.

People forget that models like early pre-impact bumper 911s got very cheap before they bounced back. There are exceptions - the 993 never got really, really cheap. But most 911s did.

I think the 997 will get pretty damn cheap. It's certainly still falling.

[Meat Head]

A big factor is mileage. Many of the older cars have 80k-125k miles. A car that has the reputation of having very high repair costs will drop in value rapidly as the miles build. The only Boxsters I see (in my 150 mile area) for around $10k have 80k+ miles on them. The IMS scare has also been a factor but now that Porsche has released the actual fail rate numbers I think that will level out (at least for the earlier double bearing cars with less than 1% failure rate).

It is harder than many make it seem to find a very nice representation of a Boxster for $10k or under. If a person goes and looks at these $10k and under Boxsters you will find a large portion of them will have worn interiors, not garage kept, leaking oil, under maintained and sub par service records. I guess what is acceptable is all in the eye of the beholder.

I do think this is a great time to pick up a nice Boxster. Though prices are down, I think it is prudent for the purchaser to spend a little extra money to aquire a nice representation of the car. I could be wrong but I think you will see a rebound in prices on the quality, well maintained early Boxsters in the next few years.

[Deserion]

Part of the disparity between 993 and 996 prices would be related directly to production figures. The 993 run produced around 63,000 cars, while the 996 run was around 162,000. Then add in IMS issues (real and hyped), general disparaging comments on the watercooled cars.

There's a chance 996 prices may come back up, eventually, but we're not at that point yet. I don't think even the 924/944 models are on the upswing just yet (then again, I may be very wrong with this as I haven't been checking prices on those).

[husker boxster]

It's happening with 987s as well. I sold my 07 Cayman S in Feb for $32K. Wouldn't have sold it for less at that time thinking that prices would bump up with spring coming. Glad I sold it for what I did, the prices haven't rebounded and I think I got top $$$. 06 Cayman Ss are now under $30K. 08 CSs are mid-30s.

Guess they don't hold their value forever.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Deserion

Part of the disparity between 993 and 996 prices would be related directly to production figures. The 993 run produced around 63,000 cars, while the 996 run was around 162,000. Then add in IMS issues (real and hyped), general disparaging comments on the watercooled cars.

There's a chance 996 prices may come back up, eventually, but we're not at that point yet. I don't think even the 924/944 models are on the upswing just yet (then again, I may be very wrong with this as I haven't been checking prices on those).

Personally don't think values have anything to do with IMS. it's a mass market car and most people don't have a clue. People spend a fortune sorting out old 911s these days, so running costs are not the issue.

It's these issues:

1. Prod numbers
2. Old but not old enough to be considered a classic
3. 996 styling (and 986 to a lesser extent) still a bit unloved

I think the 986/996 is a fabulous car and sentiment will turn eventually. But that's years and years away.

[Homeboy981]

People seem to just want it newer IMHO.

I read an article that newer cars (under $30k) were achieving 0-60 times that rivaled our "sports cars" and older muscle cars with hundreds of HP.

…guess the days of enjoying driving are over with more people on the roads too. Who wants a standard in bumper-to-bumper? Me, I guess - only cause I will find another road.

The "sheeple" have spoken. Fun is dead.

[mnc-i]

I personally think 996 prices were too high when new and still too high as a used car now.

Of course, we only see what people want for their 996s. We don't necessarily know what they actually get for the car.

I want to purchase a 1999-2001 996, but until the prices drop I cannot justify paying over $18,000 for a Carrera that looks like my 1999 Boxster from the front, has the same lousy interior yet doesn't handle as well.

I think I will keep my Boxster for a few more years. I has over 186,000 miles and I am quite satisfied.

MNC-I

[recycledsixtie]

I think it is the fun factor in the 993. The test drive I had years ago still lingers in my brain because of the exquisite noise and feel. The water pumper 996 does not compare.

986 is relatively cheap and likely will be until more folks realize it is a lot of fun for the $$$. If Porsche engineers the fun out of its modern P cars then the older fun ones should eventually increase in value or at least hold their value.

[Meat Head]

[QUOTE=

There's a chance 996 prices may come back up, eventually, but we're not at that point yet. I don't think even the 924/944 models are on the upswing just yet (then again, I may be very wrong with this as I haven't been checking prices on those).[/QUOTE]


924s and 944 will not be classics for a VERY long time. They do not posses classic lines (very dated) and are not convertible. I was never impressed with their overall performance (I've owned both). The 944 wasn't bad but the 924 was a total POS. The fact that the Boxster is a roadster will help it in the long run. Also the fact that the Boxster was intended to look retro gives it timeless lines (reminiscent of the speedster). For the most part roadsters always demand a higher resale in the classic car world. After the Boxsters that have been abused and not well maintained go to the junk-yard you will find the well maintained versions rebound (over the next few years). In 5 years or so, if a person wishes to find a nice representation of an early Boxster it will be much harder to find. Try to find a nice early 90s Toyota MR2. Now that all the abused MR2s have died a nice version will cost $$$ (and this is a car with a much smaller sticker price). Thats just my 2 cents lol.

To say that the IMS hasn't hurt the price point of the Boxster is crazy. Think about it.....I'm considering the purchase of a sports car.....do I want a car that has the potential of total engine falure that vertually totals the car or look elswere.....hence lowereing demand, hence lowering value. The IMS problem has hurt Porsches reputation. It is not the main factor in the decrease in Boxster values but it is a major contributing factor. Now that Porsche has released the true failure rates(and the word gets out) Boxsters are going to be considered a very good value wich will slowly increase prices. Again, just my 2 cents lol.

[Ckrikos]

Im waiting for 996 turbos to fall into the low to mid $30K range. I have seen some sell on ebay in the high $30's, but most still want mid 40's to low $50's, which is a lot of money for an old mass produced car. Although in my opinion its a steal.

[Mark_T]

Hard to say if the IMS issue affects pricing. I think many (most?) people buying Boxsters don't find out about that until after they buy the car, if they ever find out at all. I didn't know at the time I bought the car. It was see it, want it, buy it. I didn't even get a PPI and just got lucky in terms of getting a car that was mechanically sound. The informed and knowledgable group on this forum make up a very small percentage of Boxster owners.

In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't know about all the issues beforehand as it may have put me off buying the car, which would have been a real shame.

[JAAY]

This is what I say...

I can't get more car for the money. Nobody knows what year my car is and it still gets more looks and compliments than most cars in it's price range. I have yet to drive a better handling car under 90k. Yes I have many upgrades but with the total cost it is still under 40k after I bought it used 10 years ago. I welcome the cheap price you can pick these up for. If your a tuner like me you have the chance to own a P-car and create something that is personalized to your taste and kicks ass.

[Perfectlap]

I call it IRONY.

The surest way to bankrupt a boutique car company: make very few sales.

The surest way to save a boutique car company: sell more cars than ever.


Fast forward 17 years later and the cars that saved your tail from being bought out by Toyota are now too plentiful to escape the clutches of excessive supply and weak economy demand (996/986/996/987).
And the air-cooled cars that were doing you no favors when you needed good luck the most in the 90's are now slowly recouping lost value. Ain't that something...

I don't think its the IMS issues. Not after talking to my Indy this weekend about the cost to rebuild NA/Turbo air-cooled Carreras.
Man if dropping $12K on of those repairs doesn't scare away a first time Porsche buyer... and you thought $2K for a IMSB was bad? Put it this way, if they'd a produced as many air-cooled as the water-cooled everyone would have one of both. Antique project car for the garage, water-cooled for daily driving/autox-DE.


I'm actually surprised that there's any real price difference in values between the 996 Carreras and Boxsters. First of all they're both plagued by nearly the same engine problems and a few other things like the AOS. But more importantly the supply of 996's is much higher than the supply of Boxsters. And for a weekend wrencher interested in taking a dip into Porsche waters working on a 996 DIY is not exactly easier..

Also, the 996 has been well below 20K for quiet some time now. I'm seeing threads of people picking up fairly well kept 996's for $10-$12K. So $9K mark can't be far away with 2012 991's pushing down the prices of everything below it as far as water-cooled. It's simply way too many Carreras up for sale. The Boxsters have an additional problem, they're impractical for most who need more than two seats and come with the same budget-eating issues like expensive parts and specialized labor requirements of the Carrera. Roadsters are always a tough sell for nearly all car manufacturers. Look at Honda they threw in the towel on the S2000 which was a great car.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Ckrikos

Im waiting for 996 turbos to fall into the low to mid $30K range. I have seen some sell on ebay in the high $30's, but most still want mid 40's to low $50's, which is a lot of money for an old mass produced car. Although in my opinion its a steal.

For the engine, definitely a steal. However, I don't think I'd like to drive a pendulus, understeering car that cuts power from the rear at the slightest hint of tail-end slide (ie even more understeer)... with a potential for massively expensive repairs. The first bit of Porsche advice I got from a Porsche collector long long ago:
Don't ever buy a Porsche Turbo engine out of warranty unless you ave a chest full of cash or gold bars.

btw, I recently saw a guy on Rennlist selling his 996 C4S with the RWD mod. Asking low 30k's. Those widebodies are the nicest looking Carreras of all in my opinion. I'm in the distinct minority who didn't care for round VW Bug lights on a water-cooled car. Beautiful on a 964 or 73 RS but a bit too feminine for a big, long, plush Grand Touring.

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, I agree with much of what you say in terms of the present situation. However, while your comments concerning roadsters/convertibles is true with respect to new car sales, once vehicles have become collectible it is almost invariably the roadsters/convertibles that become the most valuable. In fact, I can't think of a single exception....

I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that, once a car is purchased or kept as a 'collectible', it is rarely a daily driver and the practical disadvantages of a convertible top become much less important (with the exception of the Cayman they typically cost more, weigh more, have more interior noise, require more maintenance while having less torsional rigidity, safety, security and luggage space). Lets face it, most people drive their classic or collectors cars only on nice days - precisely when a convertible/roadster is in its own element!

[Meat Head]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Perfectlap, I agree with much of what you say in terms of the present situation. However, while your comments concerning roadsters/convertibles is true with respect to new car sales, once vehicles have become collectible it is almost invariably the roadsters/convertibles that become the most valuable. In fact, I can't think of a single exception....

I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that, once a car is purchased or kept as a 'collectible', it is rarely a daily driver and the practical disadvantages of a convertible top become much less important (with the exception of the Cayman they typically cost more, weigh more, have more interior noise, require more maintenance while having less torsional rigidity, safety, security and luggage space). Lets face it, most people drive their classic or collectors cars only on nice days - precisely when a convertible/roadster is in its own element!

I totally agree!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Perfectlap, I agree with much of what you say in terms of the present situation. However, while your comments concerning roadsters/convertibles is true with respect to new car sales, once vehicles have become collectible it is almost invariably the roadsters/convertibles that become the most valuable. In fact, I can't think of a single exception....

I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that, once a car is purchased or kept as a 'collectible', it is rarely a daily driver and the practical disadvantages of a convertible top become much less important (with the exception of the Cayman they typically cost more, weigh more, have more interior noise, require more maintenance while having less torsional rigidity, safety, security and luggage space). Lets face it, most people drive their classic or collectors cars only on nice days - precisely when a convertible/roadster is in its own element!

^ I agree. I think the collector car market and daily driver market have very different buyers. Also, once a car has been produced into the tens of thousands you've pretty much show the collector people the door for at least the next 20-30 years. The only chance I think the Boxster has is if the 3rd and 4th buyers start seeriously neglecting/abandoning repairs on their cars and leave the enthusiast examples as the only cost-effective ones to purchase. I highly doubt the mechanical parts needed to keep Boxsters road going are ever going to get any cheaper. But even if you look at the air-cooled Carreras, very few have actually exceeded their original sale prices.

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, I agree with all of that except your time-line of another 20 to 30 years before they become collectible (in 30 years the early 986's will be almost 50 years old)! While I agree that by then the remaining 986's that have been kept clean and original will have dramatically increased values over the present, history has shown that collectible status is not like turning on a switch. In the intervening years, there will come a point when used values for clean, well-maintained examples will start to hold and then, gradually over the passage of time, start to increase. I suspect that we are getting close to that point now and that the supply of clean, well-maintained examples will fall dramatically over the next several years. As I have said before, the low cost of admission now is bringing in purchasers who will be unable to afford to maintain their cars. The end result is that most of the 986's will end up as basket cases/parts cars once the cost of required repairs apporaches the value of the car. The beater that is now selling for $7-8,000.00 is already at that point if there is engine failure; even having to replace such typical items as a clutch, AOS, coolant expansion tank, waterpump and suspension components would likely match, or exceed the purchase price.

One should also remember that even vehicles such as the VW Beetle - produced in greater numbers than any single model of car, have been considered collectible for a number of years. Remember, while they stopped sales in the United States in 1979, they were produced in Mexico until 1998. It is impossible today to find a clean, original, well-maintained example for anywhere near the original purchase price. Why? What was originally a huge supply of good cars fell rapidly in a very short period of time - and this was in spite of the fact that parts were very cheap.

[ProjectM96]

Originally Posted by thstone

We're seeing 996 prices dropping under $20K and 986 prices going below $10K. Why doesn't the 986/996 get the same love as the earlier 993 or later 997 cars?

Are the first water pumpers really that bad? Is it all IMS-related? Where does it end?

993=Last of the aircooled engines and the best looking 911 in many eyes.
997. It is much newer. When they are 15 years old, they will probably drop to $20,000 as well.

986=Many were produced. Many found for sale. There is no shortage of them. Same for the 996.

In 10 years, I expect the Boxster to be priced as low as the current Porsche 944's, at an average of $4500-5000.