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Old 07-08-2012, 08:04 AM   #1
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IMS Guardian

If you had the IMS Guardian and it was triggered what are your options? You still have an imminent potential engine failure, I assume they'd just replace the IMS? But Ive read that there are also connecting rod bearing failures that can happen on the 986 and 987.1 cars due to oil starvation, It would detect that as well? Is the IMS replaceable on the 987? A new engine can cost $12-18k, what is the average cost of a rebuild if caught before any major failure occurred? Just the engine portion, but I'd guess you'd also want to replace clutch, water pump, belts, hoses, etc while it was all apart to be safe and save extra labor costs down the road.

When I find the right car I think that will be one of my first mods.

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Old 07-08-2012, 08:12 AM   #2
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I have had the IMS guardian installed in my 2001 Boxster for a few months now. It gives me peace of mind. Not able to answer your tech. questions because I don't know. Even if I had a new ims installed I would keep the guardian installed. Worth the price of admission for me
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:16 AM   #3
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If you get an alert, you're supposed to call and get a recommendation on how to proceed. Most likely this will be an evaluation by a skilled professional to determine what might be failing.

There are about 22 known modes of failure in the M96 engine and the IMSB is only 1 of the 22 so it would be important to find the root cause of the Guardian alert.

The costs of a re-build before a catastrophic engine failure are likely to be less than after the engine detonates however the costs are variable based on the shop and the parts that the shop recommends replacing.

Do a search on this site and you'll find lots of discussion on the IMSB and engine replacement options.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:59 AM   #4
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Get an alert, flatbed the car back home, take off the sump plate and oil filter to examine the debris. If theres not much debris, then take out the tranny and flywheel and examine the IMSB. If its clear the debris is from the IMSB, then replace it. If the debris is not from the IMSB, then you will have to further dismantle the motor to determine the cause.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:48 AM   #5
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If you had the IMS Guardian and it was triggered what are your options?
If an IMS Alert occurs within the 5,000 mile service interval the system was developed around, the engine has accelerated wear related to at least one ferromagnetic wear component.
Under no "normal" circumstances would an engine generate the level of ferromagnetic wear material to trigger an IMS Alert.

Through my development time we worked with magnet strength and spacing to create a product that would be sensitive enough to detect failures well before catastrophic occurrences begin, but also desensitized just enough to overt false alarms. To date we have had zero false IMS Alert occurrences and no engines have suffered catastrophic failures when equipped with the IMS Guardian.

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You still have an imminent potential engine failure, I assume they'd just replace the IMS?
This is the thing... When the IMS Guardian is employed you know if you have an issue, no matter what that issue is, it is not good as there is zero reason for elevated levels of ferromagnetic material to be in the engine's oil supply.

When an IMS Alert occurs the engine can be diagnosed with a sump plate inspection and generally the source of the failure is clearly evident based on the type, shape and color of the material that is found. When IMS Alerts occur we offer free, specialized support to help diagnose the issue and don't forget that we extend a credit toward IMS replacement or any of our services if the car or engine is shipped to our facility for these services.

When an engine features a full IMS failure, or any other primary component failure things get much more complicated. Here are some realities:
-Porsche may not accept your core engine due to failure severity should you choose to buy a new factory engine. Today's core charges for OEM engines start at 10K and can go to 22K with early engines having the most expensive core charges.
-If you do not suffer catastrophic failure engine repair at our level is a reality and can save thousands of dollars
-Any catastrophic failure related to an IMS bearing will always have the greatest collateral damages from foreign object wear debris in the oil supply. These wear metals that are generated by the IMS Bearing begin as early as stage II bearing failure and continue to extend to the point of catastrophic failure at stage IV bearing failure. The key is to know these wear metals exist and shout the engine down before the oil filter becomes clogged and it's bypass opens, sending ferromagnetic material laden oil to the crankshaft, main and rod bearings and creating irreversible damage.

-Elevated costs related to component failure adds a MINIMUM of 2,500.00 to any of our reconstruction procedures or invasive repairs.
-Collateral damage from ferromagnetic wear metals can lead to an engines with all internally lubricated components becoming compromised. In this scenario the reality is the core is not usable at all and nothing can be reused. I have sent engines to the scrapyard because nothing inside was worth using.


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But Ive read that there are also connecting rod bearing failures that can happen on the 986 and 987.1 cars due to oil starvation, It would detect that as well?
Like this one? Its one of my favorites from my collection :-)


BUT the starvation is caused by other things upstream, not just G forces as many people believe. I just finished this chapter of my M96 Engine Assembly Guide and it is a good read for sure. The answer is yes, the OEM rod bearings are steel laden as part of their composition, so they are monitored by the IMS Guardian before this happens


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Is the IMS replaceable on the 987?
Yes it is, but not without invasive procedures. Unlike the M96 the IMS bearing cannot be retrofitted without engine disassembly.

Quote:
A new engine can cost $12-18k, what is the average cost of a rebuild if caught before any major failure occurred?
Thats according to who is doing the work. At our level we can perform invasive procedures cost effectively because we are so proficient with the engines. If an IMSB failure is caught by the IMS Guardian the cost of engine repair is the same as a normal elective IMS procure with only a couple of oil system flushes to remove residual bearing material being required. This means a repair can be as little as 3K$ and can save 18-20K.

Quote:
Just the engine portion, but I'd guess you'd also want to replace clutch, water pump, belts, hoses, etc while it was all apart to be safe and save extra labor costs down the road.
Our engine reconstruction processes include all of the above, plus upgrades of every component. These are around 18-24K.

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When I find the right car I think that will be one of my first mods.
The IMSG should be installed in every one of the cars on the street.. Thats to quote a technical Editor for a well-respected publication.

With the IMS Guardian Jr. on the verge of being released at 1/2 price the current Guardian unit and with it's increased simplicity and ease of install even more cars will be protected. One version of it even plugs into the 12V accessory (cigarette lighter) plug and has a one wire connection.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
Like this one? Its one of my favorites from my collection :-)


BUT the starvation is caused by other things upstream, not just G forces as many people believe. I just finished this chapter of my M96 Engine Assembly Guide and it is a good read for sure. The answer is yes, the OEM rod bearings are steel laden as part of their composition, so they are monitored by the IMS Guardian before this happens
At what speed did that rod let loose? was it hydolocked when the rod decided to checked out?
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #7
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To date we have had zero false IMS Alert occurrences and no engines have suffered catastrophic failures when equipped with the IMS Guardian.

How often have you had occurrences where an impending IMS failure was caught?
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #8
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At what speed did that rod let loose? was it hydolocked when the rod decided to checked out?
The engine was not hydrolocked. This occurred when the rod bolts snapped in half after a rod bearing began to fail. The car was being driven at normal speeds on the street, the failure occurred between "up" gearshifts according to the driver. When rod bolts break the factory quality internals start colliding and the result isn't positive. He said the engine was making noise, but he kept driving it anyway.
This is one of my most favorite "trophies" in my collection.


Quote:
How often have you had occurrences where an impending IMS failure was caught?
Since the technology was released almost a year ago we have received two dozen IMS Alerts, the most recent was Friday, while I was on vacation.
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:15 PM   #9
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Is the IMS replaceable on the 987?
Yes, but it's not as simple in an M97 engine based on its design.

If the trans and clutch are removed from an M96, the IMS can be replaced with the engine still in the car.

To remove / replace the IMS in the M97 you need to remove the trans, clutch, and engine. Then the engine is disassembled to the point where the block halves are split apart and the bearing removed. It cannot be pressed in like an M96.

Jake - what is the price difference for an M97 IMS replacement vs an M96 (assuming both early detections and no major internal damage)? Basically how much is added to the cost because of the engine disassembly of the M97?

Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:01 PM   #10
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Jake - what is the price difference for an M97 IMS replacement vs an M96 (assuming both early detections and no major internal damage)? Basically how much is added to the cost because of the engine disassembly of the M97?
If we disassemble an M97 only to facilitate an invasive IMS retrofit procedure we would charge around 7K to do so. This is only possible due to our proficiency with the engines and a few tricks/ tools we have developed along the way.

Thats roughly twice the cost of an M96 retrofit that is non-invasive.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:05 PM   #11
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He said the engine was making noise, but he kept driving it anyway.This is one of my most favorite "trophies" in my collection.
oops.....
looks like a great glass coffee table display...
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
The engine was not hydrolocked. This occurred when the rod bolts snapped in half after a rod bearing began to fail. The car was being driven at normal speeds on the street, the failure occurred between "up" gearshifts according to the driver. When rod bolts break the factory quality internals start colliding and the result isn't positive. He said the engine was making noise, but he kept driving it anyway.
This is one of my most favorite "trophies" in my collection.
I don't know Jake, I think that'll buff out.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:26 PM   #13
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So nutshell is that on a 987 if any problems are detected (and nothing catastrophic has happened) the owner would be looking at a bill of minimum $7000, or more. Wow. Gotta pay to play I guess, but that beats the heck out of spending $20k.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:17 PM   #14
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Jake, when do you anticipate the IMS Guardian Jr. being released?
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:47 PM   #15
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Jake, when do you anticipate the IMS Guardian Jr. being released?
This month.. We have 500 units ready, just need to finish the damn install instructions!
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #16
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So nutshell is that on a 987 if any problems are detected (and nothing catastrophic has happened) the owner would be looking at a bill of minimum $7000, or more. Wow. Gotta pay to play I guess, but that beats the heck out of spending $20k.
This is why I told you in the other thread to stick with a 986 or early m96 987.
It made a difference when I chose my.box.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:14 PM   #17
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Cant argue with the logic. Ideally I'd like to find a 987.2. Did the 3.2 in the S cars have the same issues as the 2.7?
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:49 AM   #18
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Cant argue with the logic. Ideally I'd like to find a 987.2. Did the 3.2 in the S cars have the same issues as the 2.7?
Yes.........
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:38 AM   #19
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So I have a deposit on an 07 Boxster S with 24k miles. What year did they stop using the M96 engine, in 05 when the bodystyle switched over the the 987? And will we be able to get the Guardian Jr very soon?
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:33 AM   #20
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The M96 and the M97 are very similar, the M97 started with the introduction of the 987 and 997 model year in 2005. It also marked the introduction of the 'non-serviceable" IMS that requires total engine disassembly to upgrade.

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