IMS Failure - Need Advice

[2003S]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I believe the LN IMSB is a permanent solution to the IMSB issue

it appears that Mr. Raby would disagree with that per his "IMS Solution", references. It would seem that some anticipate the LN IMSB, while very solid, may not be a "final" solution to the problem.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by 2003S

it appears that Mr. Raby would disagree with that per his "IMS Solution", references. It would seem that some anticipate the LN IMSB, while very solid, may not be a "final" solution to the problem.

appearances can be deceiving, my theory assumes proper installation & maintenance.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by thstone

[LIST][*]Nearly all current 986 owners are aware of the IMSB issue and know about their options to address it (if they desire).

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

I have to agree. In talking to my mechanic about the number of IMS bearings they've upgraded (LOTS) it seemed to me like most were adding it to their clutch replacement after being advised by the mechanic. Otherwise, and like most who visit a Porsche dealer for new clutch, they were clueless of the issue.

The other issue I have to disagree about is that failures are now priced into market prices. I believe we're only seeing the start of IMS failures.
986/987/996's are now entering that point where average mileage is starting to climb well north 50K. The cars are changing hands from folks who didn't drive the car every day to buyers who are driving the cars far more frequently which only speeds up the demise of vulnerable IMS cars. The lower the prices for Boxster go from simple price depreciation, the more people will buy these cars, drive them hard and many will not consider the problems that have been cooking from oil change intervals that were inadequate, Porsche approved oils that were inadquate and infrequent driving from the previous owner which allowed seals to dry out and become brittle.

[trimer]

Originally Posted by pothole

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

New owners probably knew...but most knew owners only ever have those cars for a few years which means they are under warranty so no need for them to even think about that bearing issue.

I am putting a new LN bearing in my car and I will be pissed if I take our good bearing to put in one that fails. But there is a risk with either bearing I guess. The more I read that post about the LN bearing failures on this thread the less it seems that LN is certain about the single row bearing.

[The French Dude]

Originally Posted by trimer

New owners probably knew...but most knew owners only ever have those cars for a few years which means they are under warranty so no need for them to even think about that bearing issue.

I am putting a new LN bearing in my car and I will be pissed if I take our good bearing to put in one that fails. But there is a risk with either bearing I guess. The more I read that post about the LN bearing failures on this thread the less it seems that LN is certain about the single row bearing.

What did you read about LN failures ?

[trimer]

Originally Posted by The French Dude

What did you read about LN failures ?

First dont get me wrong...I went on to google and typed in LN IMS failures and you will see a few stories out there...not just boxsters. I did not change the bearing on my first box and it was an 02 with 37000 miles. But, not many failures and I am not trying to start a feud with anyone...specifically LN, but there are some stories out there. As I said earlier in posts though, sounds like maybe the bearing was not installed properly which could lead to failure. My mechanic worked for years at a P dealer and started his fix it company back in 01 and has done many of these and has not seen any failure from his work...but my thing is merely out of nerves. My car has 17000 miles and I would not dream of NOT doing the upgrade but nerves...Bearing that has not failed to replace with one that is not 100% gauranteed to NOT fail.

We always read about how we NEED to do this...it is an absolute must but then read that even with the single row upgrade there has been failures? 5 or so out of a few thousand is a great number but according to Porsche only 5% failure out of hundreds of thousands?

Again - The more I type the more I want to keep my mouth shut. I AM doing the bearing upgrade on the 5th...just prey nothing happens after that!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by trimer

New owners probably knew...but most knew owners only ever have those cars for a few years which means they are under warranty so no need for them to even think about that bearing issue.

I am putting a new LN bearing in my car and I will be pissed if I take our good bearing to put in one that fails. But there is a risk with either bearing I guess. The more I read that post about the LN bearing failures on this thread the less it seems that LN is certain about the single row bearing.

If you are that concerned, give Charles Navarro, the owner of LN a call, he will openly discuss the handful of failures out of the thousands of units installed, and tell you exactly how many failed and why. Charles is very open on this subject, so stop speculating or worrying and give him a call.

[trimer]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

If you are that concerned, give Charles Navarro, the owner of LN a call, he will openly discuss the handful of failures out of the thousands of units installed, and tell you exactly how many failed and why. Charles is very open on this subject, so stop speculating or worrying and give him a call.

Exactly why I said I should keep my mouth shut. Not speculating anything but spending this kind of dough on a 17000 miles porsche makes me sick to my stomach for me and anyone else who has to do this for peace of mind. As I said...I am already scheduled to do it and wouldn't not do it but of course...as with anything mechanical it can fail as well.

[thstone]

The following is from the LN Engineering website. You can deicde for yourself if LN is saying that their bearing is a permanent replacement or not.

That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit™ Kits and IMS Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. However, with any mechanical system, we do expect there to be failures. With thousands IMS Upgrade and IMS Retrofit™ bearings in service, we have experienced zero failures of intermediate shafts with our triple bearing IMS Upgrade and similarly zero failures of the dual row bearing IMS Retrofit™s. However, of all three revisions of the intermediate shaft used by Porsche, the single row bearing found on some 2000-2001 and all 2002-2005 models is the most flawed and even with our ceramic bearing, we have had five engine failures total where the single row ceramic bearing was found to have failed (although not conclusively as the cause of the engine failure, given there are dozens of known modes of failure and secondly, these are open bearings susceptible to damage from foreign object debris). Even so, we have over a 99.9% success rate in the 3+ years our bearings have been in service.

It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by thstone

The following is from the LN Engineering website. You can deicde for yourself if LN is saying that their bearing is a permanent replacement or not.

That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit™ Kits and IMS Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. However, with any mechanical system, we do expect there to be failures. With thousands IMS Upgrade and IMS Retrofit™ bearings in service, we have experienced zero failures of intermediate shafts with our triple bearing IMS Upgrade and similarly zero failures of the dual row bearing IMS Retrofit™s. However, of all three revisions of the intermediate shaft used by Porsche, the single row bearing found on some 2000-2001 and all 2002-2005 models is the most flawed and even with our ceramic bearing, we have had five engine failures total where the single row ceramic bearing was found to have failed (although not conclusively as the cause of the engine failure, given there are dozens of known modes of failure and secondly, these are open bearings susceptible to damage from foreign object debris). Even so, we have over a 99.9% success rate in the 3+ years our bearings have been in service.

It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

LN Knows better than to claim the LN IMSB is a permanent solution, but that in no way diminishes the quality of the part.

[Jake Raby]

The IMS Solution is the answer to the permanent IMS retrofit.
Thats the entire reason we have developed it. BUT even the IMS Solution can be serviced in the future if someone wanted to and its actually easier than the current retrofit or OEM bearing.

Until a major design change is made the IMS bearing will remain a component that requires periodic maintenance. With the IMSR now 4 years old we are seeing engines being "serviced" already.

Put plainly a total overkill, ceramic composite hybrid roller bearing is the best "retrofit" available that utilizes the original bearing design. The solution has taken us 3 years to develop and we have broken a TON of stuff doing it.. BUT the best part is every time it failed in initial development the engine was NEVER compromised by collateral damages.. No foreign object debris, no valve/ piston contact and no valve timing deviations. It is designed from a "fail safe" aspect and thats exactly what it has proven and I have documented. One failure occurred at WOT 7,200 RPM against the rev limiter and the engine was not compromised.... I was on the throttle when it happened. Version 1 lasted 11 hours, version 2 lasted one minute, version 3 lasted 48 hours (never failed, just excessive wear), version 4 lasted 40 hours (no failure, more wear than version 3) and we are on the current version 5 with flawless performance through small changes made to the components and processes.

We are testing it now for compatibility with variables as the final frontier before release.. Don't expect to see it until 2014, it'll take that long to rack up the mileage on the beta testers with all the variables employed, get the patent protection wrapped up and develop the kits and tools for installation.

Collateral damage from IMSB failures are what kills engines the worst.

[rp17]

MB sorry to see this happen to you and all the others that have this misfortune. I applaud the efforts of Jake and LN for the upgrades we have available. But putting in a brand new engine at a cost of 15-20k is ridiculous!!!!! You can buy another car for far less in most cases. New engine has a few more upgrades etc etc but how did it go from 5-7k to 20k? Is this a move from Porshe to wipe these cars completely off the road?

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by rp17

MB sorry to see this happen to you and all the others that have this misfortune. I applaud the efforts of Jake and LN for the upgrades we have available. But putting in a brand new engine at a cost of 15-20k is ridiculous!!!!! You can buy another car for far less in most cases. New engine has a few more upgrades etc etc but how did it go from 5-7k to 20k? Is this a move from Porshe to wipe these cars completely off the road?

I believe we're talking about an engine that costs $5-7k if you buy it through some other means, probably around $12-15k if you buy it from Porsche, and something knocking on the door of $20k if you both buy the engine from Porsche and have them install it.

[jdiba]

Johnsimion, assuming you are referring to the IMS issue there's a 3rd group of people. Those who are willing to apply the IMS fix to their cars to eliminate at least IMS-related engine destruction. Sadly there is also a 4th group. The group of people who unfortunately no nothing of this issue. And so they are never made aware of the existence of a fix either and their choice to decide to apply it.

[BruceH]

^^^Ouch!

[CK25]

Originally Posted by Mark Beardsley

I have a 2004 Boxster S, 550 Spyder Anni Edition, with 32K miles. I purchased the car less than 12 months ago.

The IMS bearing went out with no warning, so now the engine is toast.
Porsche USA will not help.
After driving for 40+ years and 25+ cars later, this is the 1st car I have owned that had an engine failure.

I need help to determine what my options are?
Has this happened to anyone and what did you end up doing?

Help !!

Mbeardo

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?

[CK25]

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?

[lamaolopgiare2013]

Uppppppp Good Luck