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Old 12-29-2009, 09:12 AM   #1
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Smile starting to calm down(IMS)

I looked at Jake Raby's flat six innovations ims fix,it looks like something i could do without too much trouble.I did go to Porsche with my baby's vin and there is no history of any warranty work whatsoever. I don't know if thats good or bad?Anyway i emailed Jake to see what he thinks about supplying me with the goods,my girl has 44kmi.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:39 PM   #2
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If you do your own wrenching then do it! Cheap insurance. I'm about to hit 90k On the way home tonight and am just getting started.
Chris
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1999 986 2.5L, Stock Exhaust (S muffler), EVO Intake, 18" Stock rims (17" during winter), IMS Upgrade, 150k+ miles and counting!
87 944S brought back to life
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otis
I looked at Jake Raby's flat six innovations ims fix,it looks like something i could do without too much trouble.I did go to Porsche with my baby's vin and there is no history of any warranty work whatsoever. I don't know if thats good or bad?Anyway i emailed Jake to see what he thinks about supplying me with the goods,my girl has 44kmi.
When down at Jake's in Oct for my IMS retrofit, we spoke at length about their very tight control of these bearings, and maintaining strict installation quality control through a certified installers program. This is to make absolutely sure that the job is being done right by someone properly trained, and to prevent fraud. Either of these issues would seriously compromise what they're trying to do, devalue all Flat6 and LN Engineering's many years of costly development work, and to some extent devalue the significant cost of the retrofit for guys like me who paid full boat to have the job done right. The quality of the installation is easily important as - if not more important than - having the proper bearing.

Every bearing and engine/car that has the bearing installed is registered and there's a lot of pre and post installation evaluation that's done and documented for their internal use and for the owner's records. There are a number of anti-fraud measures they've developed and implemented as well. If you have your car done by Jake or one of the handful of certified installers, then you'll obviously be privy to that information.

Call Jake or LN Engineer and ask if they'll sell you a bearing, but I can already tell you what the answer will be.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:52 PM   #4
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ims retro

i'm so new to the Porsche world i'm sorry if i offended anyone,i'm just so used to doing everything myself.Sorry
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otis
i'm so new to the Porsche world i'm sorry if i offended anyone,i'm just so used to doing everything myself.Sorry
I don't think you offended anyone, and how could you have known about a conversation that took place privately?
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otis
i'm so new to the Porsche world i'm sorry if i offended anyone,i'm just so used to doing everything myself.Sorry
No offense taken. Hey, I try to do as much as I can myself, too. Wish I had your can-do attitude and level of skill to take on major projects. Most I can handle is a little more than pretty basic stuff, but that does take a big bite out of maintenance and repair costs. This forum has been a huge help, giving me the confidence to take on projects I might not normally have tried, and saving me big $$$.

If you saw what was involved with the IMS retrofit, you'd definitely have a greater appreciation for why they limit installations to only a handful of certified mechanics and why it's so costly. Jake clearly sweats the details, which is necessary when engine health is at stake. All the certified installers are probably the same way. Lots of talented people on this forum who probably do have the skills to do the job right with the proper training.

Last edited by gschotland; 12-30-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:23 AM   #7
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Not to contradict you, but last I heard, Jake wasn't limiting sales of the retrofit bearing in any way. Maybe with the economic downturn, he's trying to keep more work in-house? They can also be bought thru LN Engineering, and the tools (puller) can even be rented.

There's no reason a competent mechanic couldn't do the retrofit, there are at least several people who have already done so. If you want to see exactly what's involed, and judge for yourself, check out the Pelicanparts.com forum . In the "Tech info center" they have a very detailed pictoral of a complete engine tear-down, which shows the bearing replacement steps, as does LN's website.

I would do it on my own car, but I have an '06 so I can't! I'm not sure if that is a good thing, or a bad thing ?

Steve

Last edited by stephen wilson; 12-30-2009 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen wilson
If you want to see exactly what's involed, and judge for yourself, check out the Pelicanparts.com forum . In the "Tech info center" they have a very detailed pictoral of a complete engine tear-down, which shows the bearing replacement steps, as does LN's website.
OK, I stand corrected, at least partially. I checked out the removal/installation procedure on pelicanparts.com. Looks like a piece of cake. :-) Seriously, it doesn't look too bad. It's also detailed just as well on flat6innovations.com. I saw some of it first hand when my car was being done.

I've never had any contact w/LN Engineering, although I've seen Charles Navarro's posts and seen their site before, but not recently. As you said, they're selling the single and double row bearings & renting the puller. They're in business to make $. If they're OK with selling the bearing to anyone, who can fault them?

Maybe I misunderstood Jake; he may have said HE wasn't selling the bearing, only installing it and training/certifying other people to do it. AFAIK, LNE only develops, manufactures and sells parts and doesn't get involved with installations in customer cars or training. The latter is Jake's bailiwick. If your bearing hasn't yet failed, it does seem an experienced mechanic or DIYer could handle the retrofit. If the engine has failed and there's a question as to whether the IMS bearing was the sole cause or a contributing factor, that's where things can get a lot more complicated and intimate knowledge of this engine and all of its "modes of failure" - to use Jake's term - becomes much more valuable.

From what he told me, there's a real lack of M96 rebuilding knowledge out there among experienced mechanics, particularly dealer mechanics, because Porsche only wanted to sell and swap complete engines. As the value of cars with this engine has dropped, mileage is racked up, warranties end, and Porsche jacks the prices of its remanufactured engines way up, the demand for rebuilding and repair has increased. Jake told me he loves to share his knowledge and teach, so much so that his new shop building has a dedicated classroom that includes pro level equipment for producing instructional videos. (Yeah, yeah, I know what you're thinking. Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more. ;-) ) There are thousands of candidates for the retrofit out there and even if he did them full time he'd only be able to do a very small percentage of them (all his words). Why not do what he loves and share his knowledge through training? And so he does.

I didn't see any evidence that he has any shortage of business or is trying to keep all the IMSR business for himself. People ship cars to him from all over the country, and engines from all over the world, so I think this means something about what he offers. When I was there a 986 from CA with a failed engine was shipped in, an engine was being sent out to Russia that had been shipped in for an IMS retrofit (maybe other stuff as well), and he was rebuilding a $30k race engine for a GT3. I had to make my appointment 2 months in advance.

So what's my point? Forget a minute about the guys who are skilled enough to do this job themselves (more power to them). As someone who had to pay for this retrofit to be done, I felt much more comfortable taking my car to a guy who knows the procedure (he'd done around 20 of them at that time), the product and the engine inside and out. I wasn't anxious to have even a very talented local mechanic learn/train on my car, labor cost issues aside. Having the benefit of Jake's expertise didn't cost me any more than if I'd attempted to have the job done locally. My clutch was done at the same time, as was the RMS. Subtracting what these would have cost me locally (parts & labor) and the cost of the bearing & puller rental - if I were to attempt this job myself (ha!) - and the net labor cost to have him do the IMSR was ~$1,000. For the level of expertise and the quality of the result I got, that's a great value in my book. All things to think about if DIY isn't an option.

The person who can do the bearing can also undoubtedly do his clutch and the RMS. For such a highly skilled person, now the cost for Jake to do the job is more like $2000-$2500, probably not worth it.

Last edited by gschotland; 12-31-2009 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:26 AM   #9
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No problem, I just didn't want to see someone discouraged from doing an upgrade that COULD prevent an expensive failure. Not everyone can afford to pay Jake to do it, though I admit that is the most fool-proof option. Others just enjoy the challange of working on their cars. I certainly wouldn't attemp a complete rebuild, though a few owners have.
Happy New Year!
Steve
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