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Old 03-15-2005, 07:17 AM   #1
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6% off MSRP?

I went to my local Porsche dealer and in our first casual conversation -- no negotiating yet -- he said he could do $2K off an ordered car with a sticker around $59-$60K. Based on the 6% off that I read about in another thread, it seems like I should do around $3600 off. I live in the northeast, on Long Island. I'm willing to travel to a dealer further away, but only if I get an added incentive to do so. What's your take on pricing?

I'm also trading in a '95 968 cab with 56K miles (original owner) and I'm wondering whether I'll do any better on a trade-in price from a Porsche dealer rather than, say, a Chevy dealer where I've also been looking at C6 Corvettes (although I'm leaning toward Porsche). Sometimes I think there's no difference. The traded car ends up with a wholesaler regardless of make.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:10 AM   #2
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trade in?

the conventional wisdom is that trading in a car is not a good practice. I've sold many used cars on Ebay and ALWAYS made more than the blue book value.
If you trade in your 95 Porsche you will be lucky to get even 50% of the blue book value. So in essence you are negotiating a discount on your new Boxster and then giving the savings right back to the dealer when you sell them your old Porsche at such a low price. And by sound of it, your old Porsche is in nice shape.
As far as Porsche's go on Ebay, there are more buyers than good product.

I know it can be a hassle selling a used car but the beauty of selling cars on the internet is that you can sell your car to someone in another part of the country and you'll never see them or the car again. They even have a service that will send a truck to pick up the car and ship it to the new owner, all at his expense.
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:28 PM   #3
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Thumbs up

Perfectlap
I, like Longislander1 have to sell my much loved "99 boxster and your advise for him, rings true for me. Thanks

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Old 03-17-2005, 03:03 PM   #4
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Let me disagree with you.

For folks who hate to sell a car, a trade-in may be worth the financial impact of that decision. Many do this with no regrets.

Your statement about 50% of blue book is not correct. Are you saying that a Porsche with a 40K retail value will trade at 20K? If so, you are wrong.

Selling cars on EBAY is not easy for most and most cars on EBAY actually do not sell by auction close. Nor do the EBAY sales yield much money for the seller. Most times, the seller ends up getting about trade value based on my detailed analysis of Porsche sales. Most times the bids actually don't reach that mark.

I don't like to be disagreeable but your information is mostly all wrong.

Having said that, a patient seller who sells their own car locally SHOULD end up with thousands more in their pocket than from a trade in. Some of that might be offset via sales tax offsets but in general, a prudent, patient seller can do much better.

Just not on EBAY.

BTW-many ebay auctions that end with a winner end up having the winner bail on the deal. Then you start again anew.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectlap
trade in?

the conventional wisdom is that trading in a car is not a good practice. I've sold many used cars on Ebay and ALWAYS made more than the blue book value.
If you trade in your 95 Porsche you will be lucky to get even 50% of the blue book value. So in essence you are negotiating a discount on your new Boxster and then giving the savings right back to the dealer when you sell them your old Porsche at such a low price. And by sound of it, your old Porsche is in nice shape.
As far as Porsche's go on Ebay, there are more buyers than good product.

I know it can be a hassle selling a used car but the beauty of selling cars on the internet is that you can sell your car to someone in another part of the country and you'll never see them or the car again. They even have a service that will send a truck to pick up the car and ship it to the new owner, all at his expense.
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:05 PM   #5
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"Sometimes I think there's no difference. The traded car ends up with a wholesaler regardless of make.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks."

Actually you are correct here. The Porsche dealer MAY have a buyer for that particular car and then can sweeten his trade offer. But most times, we are all looking at the same data.

If there is big diff, the dealer may simply be shuffling dollars around.

Good luck.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:53 PM   #6
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well I was reporting on my experiences selling popular cars on Ebay. Undesireable cars which may be the bulk of what's on Ebay (I don't know) surely are less attractive and don't sell as quickly. Populars Cars sold by dealers also don't sell as quickly as cars sold by private owners because they have to recoup their overhead costs. But Popular cars like a well maintained 95 911 sold by a private owner is the type of auction bidders love to find.

As I said, I have made many times the bluebook value for those well maintained cars I have sold on ebay. An enourmous relief to me as I thought I would never recoup the maintenance costs and upgrades. But that's the whole point, bidders with a little cash in their pockets are looking to buy well maintened cars, they don't have time to deal with unexpected repairs and thus are willing to go abve the bluebook. And my friends who are car enthusiasts as well, have all had similar experiences selling cars on ebay. We all agree, we NEVER could have done as well if we would have tried to sell the cars localy for the simple reason: the larger the audience the bigger the possibility of getting a buyer with more money to spend.
Also the SPEED of the sales is tremendous for popular cars. I surpassed the best local offer of my well maintained Miata within days of begining the no reserve auction and had to cancel the auction early because I was getting so many email offers. I decided to sell the Miata with the hardtop (which wasn't listed in the auction) before the auction ended for twice whay I was asking for locally.

My experience with other Japanese cars was identical. Even a lowly but immaculate Toyota Corolla I sold for a friend netted well north the blue book value. They didn't all sell within the auction period but it was quicker and less of a hassle than the constant phone calls from newspaper adds and the random person jotting down the phone number on a for sale sign glued to the rear window.

There are ways to safeguard your sale from a deadbeat bidder. For instance I will cancel bids if the seller does not provide me with contact information before bidding, if that bidders feedback were very low(below 100). And the statistics for Ebay motors are spectacular. Autobytel, Autotrade etc. Would LOVE to do the business that Ebay Motors is doing. Ebay stock is up 100% in the last two years, the Ebay Motors division has a large part to do with that. They sell a car every 6 minutes and I doubt most buyers are deadbeats.

I can't really think of any car buying experts who have ever said that trading in a car was anything but a losing proposition. books sold by experts who provid buyers with tips for purchasing a new car almost are unanimous:
trading is an extremely expensive luxury.
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Old 03-17-2005, 06:24 PM   #7
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You keep referring to Blue Book Value as if there is one number that constitutes that value.

You need to come clean here. What blue book value are you talking about? KBB, retail, wholesale, PPT, or trade. You may or may not know that KBB rules in CA, and NADA in the rest of the country.

I stand by my statements on EBAY. It is not a good way to sell a car for a relatively high value ON AVERAGE! Exceptions occur but I can tell you that Porsche sellers will be very disappointed with what they are offered on EBAY.


And I agree with you that trading a car is usually the least financially desirable option. However, it is an option that millions of folks take each year.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:21 PM   #8
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the kelley Blue book!

The arch enemy of car dealerships!
EVery car salesman I ever dealt with immediately rolls his eyes or makes
some pained facial gesture when I point out what www.kbb.com says a car is worth for a trade in, or purchase price.


On one ocassion at a large Toyota dealership the salesman literally lost his temper (yes at the customer) when I pointed out what awful deal they were offering. I tagged along with a friend who didn't speak English as first language and was about to get a very bad deal and even worse financing arrangements (despite having excellent credit). Well needless to say he raised his voice at the wrong guy. I didn't say two words to this guy and went directly to the regional manager and the car was purchased somewhere else.

By the way how do insurance policies determine the worth of a car if it is totaled in a wreck or is stolen and disapears to Russia? Any insurance guys on the forum?


by the way,
your 1995 968 Cab in Excellent condition with 56K miles?
Its worth nearly $19,000 if you sell it yourself
let's see how much the Porsche dealership offers you.
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:09 AM   #9
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You did not answer the question. In point of fact, there are four values that are referenced in versions of the KBB. Which value of the KBB were you referring to above when you indicated that trade offers would equate 50% of Blue Book. You did not answer that question because this simply does not happen.

You may also know that used cars actually sell at widely divergent values from the KBB values. For example, it is widely known that Boxsters are selling far below Private Party Values from the KBB. If you don't believe me, simply go on Auto Trader.com and see what the private sellers are willing to sell their Boxsters for.

So, what values are you referring to?

In point of fact, when I look at establishing a value for trade, I look at auction values. Why? Because I can always go to the auction and buy a Boxster at that price, every week. Why would I pay you more for your trade, UNLESS, I have jacked up the price of the car I am selling you?

Insurance companies practices vary. Most will try to pay lower than retail value if you will let them get away with that. Interestingly, most folks don't know there is some wiggle room in the values here too!

Lastly, his Porsche is worth what he can sell it for, not what you say it is. If he can sell if for $21K it is worth that. If in four months, he sells it for $17K, it is worth that. He has to deal with the uncertainty of funding and timing and valuation. For that uncertainty, he MAY realize much more value than simply trading it in but then again, there are no guarantees. In four months he may be back to trade value. I know this is true as I buy Porsche's from guys everyday who have had the car on the market for months and then need the cash TODAY!



The fact that you feel you can value a car that you have never seen without knowledge of the local market shows that you may not know what you are talking about..








Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectlap
the kelley Blue book!

The arch enemy of car dealerships!
EVery car salesman I ever dealt with immediately rolls his eyes or makes
some pained facial gesture when I point out what www.kbb.com says a car is worth for a trade in, or purchase price.


On one ocassion at a large Toyota dealership the salesman literally lost his temper (yes at the customer) when I pointed out what awful deal they were offering. I tagged along with a friend who didn't speak English as first language and was about to get a very bad deal and even worse financing arrangements (despite having excellent credit). Well needless to say he raised his voice at the wrong guy. I didn't say two words to this guy and went directly to the regional manager and the car was purchased somewhere else.

By the way how do insurance policies determine the worth of a car if it is totaled in a wreck or is stolen and disapears to Russia? Any insurance guys on the forum?


by the way,
your 1995 968 Cab in Excellent condition with 56K miles?
Its worth nearly $19,000 if you sell it yourself
let's see how much the Porsche dealership offers you.
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Old 03-18-2005, 11:57 AM   #10
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I was referring to the the private owner selling price. Most consumers (I personally know) think of this price when they discuss the value of their used car they intend to sell. Most people I know who are not extremely wealthy and busy wouldn't ever trade in a car so they never refer to the retail trade-in value when they are figuring out the bluebook value.

And I'm not saying his 1995 968 is worth $19K, Kelley BB says it is.
(since he's from LI I put in NY when I ran the calculator)

Sure he might not find a buyer right away but the generally accepted guideline is the one put forward by the KBB. I'm not an economist so I can't say what the true woprth of a particular car is (whatever that means) but since most people don't know the auto business as well as dealers and at the same their is great distrust of auto sales industry, they turn to a third party to tell them what is "fair value" for a car.

A set of Carrera 5 spoke wheels can be purchased any day on Ebay for $3,000 with tires. Yet no one ever bids. Yet the seller has determined that $3,000 is the fair market value. Porsche believes it to be higher. Does this mean the wheels are not worth $3,000 because they are relisted week after week without a buyer? I've always thought of worth to be the amount of money I can recoup if I decide to sell without using/wearing down the product.

At some point a consumer with the money to spend on a nice set of new Carrera 5 spokes will make the purchase and no one will say that since he bought wheels that were sitting around for months, that he was ripped off for paying $3,000.

I guess their are two perspectives on "worth" what the consumers believe and
what the auto industry believes. Unless you are buying a Saturn(if they still do that).

By the way the car's I've sold for many friends, lend them to believe I do know what I'm talking about when I say how much their cars will bring in. Because so far with online auctions/ads its ALWAYS been higher than what either the KBB told them it was worth (to them as private sellers) or what the local used car lot guy offered them.

The ebay pricing for used car's often differs with the audience that car has.
Allot of conservative people don't feel comfortable buying a Boxster in an Ebay auction thus the bids come from a certain type of buyer, one that has greater trust in the internet than a more traditional buyer. An older 911 may have a different type of audience as well, one that regularly buys used parts from the internet and has much more experience with online purchasing. Those buyers will propbably be more likely to bid on an older 911. Than the buyer of a Boxster.
The point is that even within the same Brand the buyer of one model might be more willing to buy than the buyer of another model.
Its all becoming more complex with every passing day.

BUT DON"T TRADE IN YOUR CAR
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Old 03-18-2005, 12:15 PM   #11
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One thing to consider, if the tax regulations are the same in your state as they are in NY, is that you don't pay tax on the value of the trade in. So trading in that $19k car actually nets you $20,567.50 at my local tax rates.

When I traded in my 14 month old RSX I got $18k for it. I probably could've moved it for $19k or maybe as much as 19.5k but it was obviously not worth the bother.
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Old 03-18-2005, 12:25 PM   #12
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"I was referring to the the private owner selling price. Most consumers (I personally know) think of this price when they discuss the value of their used car they intend to sell. Most people I know who are not extremely wealthy and busy wouldn't ever trade in a car so they never refer to the retail trade-in value when they are figuring out the bluebook value."

This is a start as you now specify what BB value you are referring to.

"And I'm not saying his 1995 968 is worth $19K, Kelley BB says it is.
(since he's from LI I put in NY when I ran the calculator)"

KBB does not say that his car is worth 19K, only that the average price for a car of his type HAS BEEN 19K over time and distance. What he gets for it is what he gets for it, so it is a guide and KBB says that very clearly.

"Sure he might not find a buyer right away but the generally accepted guideline is the one put forward by the KBB. I'm not an economist so I can't say what the true woprth of a particular car is (whatever that means) but since most people don't know the auto business as well as dealers and at the same their is great distrust of auto sales industry, they turn to a third party to tell them what is "fair value" for a car."

I have no issue with KBB, use them all the time. However, they produce value guides and are careful to disclaim that in their literature.

"A set of Carrera 5 spoke wheels can be purchased any day on Ebay for $3,000 with tires. Yet no one ever bids. Yet the seller has determined that $3,000 is the fair market value. Porsche believes it to be higher. Does this mean the wheels are not worth $3,000 because they are relisted week after week without a buyer? I've always thought of worth to be the amount of money I can recoup if I decide to sell without using/wearing down the product."

If you can't sell the wheels at $3000 then by definition they are not worth $3000.

"At some point a consumer with the money to spend on a nice set of new Carrera 5 spokes will make the purchase and no one will say that since he bought wheels that were sitting around for months, that he was ripped off for paying $3,000."

It does not matter what other people say, if he paid $3K, they were worth it to him, no?



"I guess their are two perspectives on "worth" what the consumers believe and
what the auto industry believes. Unless you are buying a Saturn(if they still do that)."

Worth is determined by where the buyer and seller agree to a deal.

"By the way the car's I've sold for many friends, lend them to believe I do know what I'm talking about when I say how much their cars will bring in. Because so far with online auctions/ads its ALWAYS been higher than what either the KBB told them it was worth (to them as private sellers) or what the local used car lot guy offered them."

You are waffling here. The way you word your statement by definition makes your right. Can you sell it for PPT all the time or do you just beat the trade value?

I have done much data crunching of EBAY sold data on the Porsche Boxster and 911. It rare but possible to get PPT KBB on EBAY but most folks do not. In fact, most Porsches don't sell at all on EBAY. Of the 20% that do, most sell for around trade value and a few rare ones get to PPT.

That is also true for Corvettes, and most BMW models.

If you don't believe me spend an afternoon sorting the data. You will be surprised I believe.

"The ebay pricing for used car's often differs with the audience that car has.
Allot of conservative people don't feel comfortable buying a Boxster in an Ebay auction thus the bids come from a certain type of buyer, one that has greater trust in the internet than a more traditional buyer. An older 911 may have a different type of audience as well, one that regularly buys used parts from the internet and has much more experience with online purchasing. Those buyers will propbably be more likely to bid on an older 911. Than the buyer of a Boxster.
The point is that even within the same Brand the buyer of one model might be more willing to buy than the buyer of another model.
Its all becoming more complex with every passing day."

Candidily, unless an EBAY car is local and can be inspected by me personally, I would never buy a car over EBAY. The horror stories abound and buying this way is Russian Roulette. My neighbor bought a Jag on EBAY that he has inspected by a service far away. That car had been hit in every panel, as I showed him when he brought it over. The guy did not use a paint meter and got fooled by a nice repair job. Of course, the car won;t drive staight but hey, he got a great deal!



"BUT DON"T TRADE IN YOUR CAR "

Again, trade ins are fine for those who do not want to sell there car on their own and who understand that this will cost them some dough. I tell every prospect that every time I evaluate a trade. And I have not issue with direct sale. I make my money on selling my car, not taking advantage of a buyer. I can buy cars at auction all day long.

Different strokes for diff folks.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:44 PM   #13
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I haven't talked to the Porsche dealer about trading the 968 yet, but GM has an appraisal section that gives you an approximate trade-in value of $8-$12K, so that's the most I could probably expect on a trade for a Corvette. $8K for that car is criminal, but $19K is probably too high. Private sale should be around $15-$17K, I hope, although I hate entertaining the tire-kickers. If anyone here would like a pretty nice 968 in that range, send me a PM. It's Guards Red with tan partial leather and black top, 56K miles. I'm the original owner. It outperforms the early Boxsters and still turns heads.
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:00 PM   #14
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well admittedly I haven't sold any German cars on ebay. Its been only Japanese car with solid reputations for reliability. Mazda, Toyota, Honda. All were sold above the highest possible price quoted by Kelly Blue Book. Some two and three times the highest quoted KBB price. One was as old as ten years with more than 100k on the speedo. I agree the buyer was nuts to agree sight unseen. But this car was immaculate and was repainted by a high end Body shop with paint that was better than factory. It sparkled in the sun like the day it left the Honda plant.
The buyer took a risk in buyin online But I think people put allot of stock in these feedback ratings if they are perfect and well north of 100. Feeback heavily influences the final price of a car sold on Ebay Motors.

Longislander take your car to a Porshe Club Concours event. Slap a for sale sign on it and let's see how you do. If you can wait until the warm weather returns.
I always try to sell my cars to other enthusiasts. They know well maintained sports cars don't just grow on trees. I saw eBay bids on a 1992 with 80K at over $10,000.
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:18 PM   #15
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I'm folllowing this thead with interest because my '99 will be up for sale soon. I'm going to give Ebay a shot, with a reserve. There is a transferrable warranty in place with 2 1/2 years and 35k miles left on it. I have met all the conditions of the policy. Not being familiar with Ebay, how much influence will this have on the sale?

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Old 03-18-2005, 02:25 PM   #16
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Well again I don't know that he highest possible price from KBB means. If you mean retail, then I assert this would only apply to older specialty models that are bringing larger dollars.

If you are telling me that routine late model Hondas are bringing high book, I guess I would have to say you are dead wrong.

Moreover, I will reiterate, anyone who buys a car on EBAY without seeing it first is insane or just foolish with their money. I recently bought a part from a guy on EBAY with GREAT feedback. The part was junk, he left EBAY the week after and I was out 60 bucks. Now, if that was a $18K Porsche .......................

And EBAY will NOT help you if you are taken by a seller.
That is simply a lie.

Caveat Emptor!
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:11 PM   #17
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That's a great idea. We have one coming up here in June if I don't sell it before then. Thanks!

QUOTE=Perfectlap]Longislander take your car to a Porshe Club Concours event. Slap a for sale sign on it and let's see how you do. If you can wait until the warm weather returns.I always try to sell my cars to other enthusiasts. They know well maintained sports cars don't just grow on trees. I saw eBay bids on a 1992 with 80K at over $10,000.[/QUOTE]
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:15 PM   #18
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Brucelee, have you had good experiences with Ebay in the past? Is this a case of a few bad apples? I want the buyer of my car to have a good feeling about their new Boxster. It is my intent to point out the shortcomes as well as the strong points of this car. I am 100% on the up and up and might be upset if it was not for the fact that we have all heard these horrors before, the "infomation age" has sure created a whole new pond of scum.
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:32 PM   #19
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My experience as a buyer and seller on EBAY for Autos is limited. I bought one car through EBAY but it was a local car and i was able to check it out personally before I bid.

I have sold two cars through EBAY but not at auction. Two local buyers saw my cars on EBAY and bought them directly from me after the auction closed. In both cases, they were able to check the car out directly and in one case, the person has the car inspected by the local Porsche dealer before buying. This was a $44K 911 and I think this buyer was very very prudent in his purchase.

The fact is that most EBAY sellers are honest I would bet. However, the cost of most cars would dictate a very prudent approach and buying a car sight unseen seems fool hard at best. NO amount of pictures or descriptions can do the can justice.

Since I inspect cars for a living, I hope you believe me when I say that this is NOT an easy process and many cars can make fools of even pros like me.

Imagine how tough it would be to do this over the INET>

Obviously, buying a new car over the Net is a totally different issue and I think that is a very wise way to go.

In summary, I would consider EBAY to be a national ad but I would not expect to actually sell a car through the auction process. Percentage wise, this just does not happen that often.








Quote:
Originally Posted by graybeard
Brucelee, have you had good experiences with Ebay in the past? Is this a case of a few bad apples? I want the buyer of my car to have a good feeling about their new Boxster. It is my intent to point out the shortcomes as well as the strong points of this car. I am 100% on the up and up and might be upset if it was not for the fact that we have all heard these horrors before, the "infomation age" has sure created a whole new pond of scum.
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Old 03-18-2005, 04:53 PM   #20
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Brucelee

I do hear what you are saying. I plan on listing it in the local papers where the buyer can see and feel it. I would love to see the smile on their face as they as they leave in a great car at a good price. The trade in on the car plus the tax break is not realy that bad, as a last resort just would prefer seeing someone getting a good deal without passing it through additional hands, no offense. I've sold my last two vehicles via private party and both times I've put a little extra in my pocket and felt very comfortble knowing they did well also. You sell car and I'm certain you understand.

I do enjoy this site immensely!
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