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Old 10-01-2008, 08:25 AM   #1
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Ultra High Perf. All-Season Vs. Max Perf. Summer Tires

Im in the process of shopping tires for my 02 Boxster S, and I have some questions regarding the Performance Categories. Tire Rack describes:

Ultra High Performance All-Season - You want all-season versatility (including light snow traction) and are willing to trade some dry and wet traction and handling to get it.

Max Performance Summer - You want an unsurpassed blend of dry and wet street traction and handling and only the finest will do.

Based on this, Id say that the UHPAS tires would be most suitable for my driving style, but I want to make sure that Im not making a huge mistake before dropping $1,000 on a set of new tires.

The car used to be my daily driver (100 miles/day), but since I bought a hybrid, my plan is to only drive the car on weekends and maybe once a month to the office. I drive mostly on straight roads and try to avoid days where wet weather is in the forecast. I'm also not opposed to driving the car on a cold January day. Dont get me wrong, I do enjoy having fun with the car, hitting an occasional on ramp or curvey road, but the car is never on the track. Treadwear is very important to me as well as the overall look of the tire and performance.

The tires that are currently on the car are 18 Continentals (ContiSportContact2), which came on the car when I purchased it. If I went with the UHPAS tires, how much of a performance difference would I really notice?

Here are the two I am considering:

Pirelli PZero Nero M&S:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=PZero+Nero+M%26S

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+A%2FS+Plus

Thanks in advance dave


Last edited by dja1980; 10-01-2008 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:58 AM   #2
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There's no such thing as ultra high performance all-season tires. They don't have them in europe and it's a marketing name to fool you.

If you get any kind of snow (I assume you do in IL) I'd get some snow tires. Not only they're design to work in snow but also in extremely low temperatures which your summer tires can't.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:21 AM   #3
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We do have snow in IL, but if there's even the slightest chance of it in the forecast, the car will stay in the garage. Cold days, however, are a concern. Will the UHPAS tires handle the cold temps?

I agree with you. The marketing is what I'm concerned about. Descriptions like "Developed for the drivers of high-end sports cars, sporty coupes and performance sedans..." and "... designed specifically for the North American market to provide year-round traction and handling for cars with sporty dispositions" are what motivated me to inquire about these tires in the first place.

I'm not opposed to purchasing the MPS tires, but it seems that they wear out much faster when compared to the UHPAS tires. I really don't want to spend $1,200 on a set of tires that will be worn twice as fast as a $1,000 set if there really isn't an advantage to the MPS tires given my driving style.
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dja1980
We do have snow in IL, but if there's even the slightest chance of it in the forecast, the car will stay in the garage. Cold days, however, are a concern. Will the UHPAS tires handle the cold temps?

I agree with you. The marketing is what I'm concerned about. Descriptions like "Developed for the drivers of high-end sports cars, sporty coupes and performance sedans..." and "... designed specifically for the North American market to provide year-round traction and handling for cars with sporty dispositions" are what motivated me to inquire about these tires in the first place.

I'm not opposed to purchasing the MPS tires, but it seems that they wear out much faster when compared to the UHPAS tires. I really don't want to spend $1,200 on a set of tires that will be worn twice as fast as a $1,000 set if there really isn't an advantage to the MPS tires given my driving style.
From what I've seen, the tires with "UHPAS" labels tend to have high speed ratings (W & Y).. I've put a set of Conti Extreme Contracts on my 07 Box because I bought these tires before for another car and was happy with their overall performance. Check the reviews/ratings at TireRack. My tires were about $660 shipped and it was another $140 for mounting/road force balancing. Keep in mind that these UHPAS tires can only handle light snow, but with a 4" clearance on our Boxsters, we'll be leaving the car in the garage when the big snow storms arrive.

Regards,
paul...

Last edited by paulv; 10-01-2008 at 10:06 AM. Reason: spelling/grammer corrections
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:27 AM   #5
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You're making a compromise with these all-seasons tires. It'll give you adequate summer/winter traction no doubt.

It's not how fast they'll wear out - think of the safety aspect, you'll definitely get worse braking distance for sure.

You have to realize your driving style plays a big part on how long tires last - the tread wear rating is just one value from the whole formula.

Tires IMO are the most important aspect for our cars. Spend the money where it should be spent.
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulv
From what I've seen, the tires with "UHPAS" labels tend to have high speed ratings (W & Y).. I've put a set of Conti Extreme Contracts on my 07 Box because I bought these tires before for another car and was happy with their overall performance. Check the reviews/ratings at TireRack. My tires were about $660 shipped and it was another $140 for mounting/road force balancing. Keep in mind that these UHPAS tires can only handle light snow, but with a 4" clearance on our Boxsters, we'll be leaving the car in the garage when the big snow storms arrive.

Regards,
paul...
Thanks! That's some good information. The thing about TireRack is that they have 6 categories for All-Season tires and 6 categories for Summer tires. I guess the good thing about the UHPAS tires is that they are rated highest performance in the All-Season class.

I have read many reviews on the tires I am interested in. Overall, the reviews are good for both of the tires I previously linked to, but I came here because there is a lack of reviews from Boxster owners. Mostly, I see reviews from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, and Audi owners.

The Pilot Sport A/S Plus tires are too new, and I can't find any reviews on them. However, I did pull up the reviews for the Pilot Sport A/S (non-Plus), and I based my review on those. I'm still not sure what the difference is between the two. They look nearly identical to one another. The only thing I can tell is that the non-Plus tires aren't available in the sizes we need.

I'm leaning more toward the Pilots at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekam
You're making a compromise with these all-seasons tires. It'll give you adequate summer/winter traction no doubt.

It's not how fast they'll wear out - think of the safety aspect, you'll definitely get worse braking distance for sure.

You have to realize your driving style plays a big part on how long tires last - the tread wear rating is just one value from the whole formula.

Tires IMO are the most important aspect for our cars. Spend the money where it should be spent.
But again, don't you think that this plays a bigger part for those who really drive their Boxsters the way they were built to be driven? If a person who drives their car the way I do wouldn't be able to tell the difference, it seems like a waste to spend more money to be replaced in half the time.

Safety is a concern though. I wonder if there is any data out there to show roughly how much braking distance would be compromised by going with the UHPAS tires. This is definitely worth considering.

Thanks for all the good information!
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:29 AM   #7
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Based on the points you've made I say get the all-seasons. They give you the most versatility and probably have the better tread life. Yes, Summer tires will be stickier, offer better grip and will stop faster, but that's what soft tires specially made to be used in warm weather on dry roads that they can grab will do. If you don't have a particular reason to go for the Summer tires, and it doesn't sound like you're motivated to do so, then don't buy the extreme end of the performance and limit the conditions in which you feel comfortable driving.

I have Summer tires but where I live it's pretty much always Summer, and even given that I weighed wet grip heavily in my selection. There's nothing wrong with performance all-seasons. The rubber won't freeze in cold weather and you'll get a little tread for the early Fall snow flurries.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:38 AM   #8
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All-seasons will obviously not be as good as dedicated snows and dedicated summers, but once you get past that, there are several good options. You'll lose some edge when it comes to turn-in and probably ultimate grip, but you'll most likely gain ride comfort and the obvious all-season and light-snow capability.

Tire Rack tests:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=102
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=87

I've read and heard good things about the re960. My mom is picking up a set for her CL, so if you're still undecided, I can give you a better idea in a few weeks.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekam
It's not how fast they'll wear out - think of the safety aspect, you'll definitely get worse braking distance for sure.
Not always true... for example, in a 50-0 test, here are some numbers:

RE960 Pole Position A/S: Dry- 87.8' Wet- 92.4'
Conti SportContact2: Dry- 88.6' Wet- 96.2'

The cars used were different (e46 vs e90 3-series), but the numbers are still valid for comparison.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:47 AM   #10
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I drive my sports cars everyday unless we get a pile of snow (then I stay home). I've been down your road and wrestled with the same questions you have. Here's what I've learned:

Two cars back I purchased a new MR2 Spyder. It came with Yokohama Advans which were great in the summer but not worth a crap in the snow (even a few flakes). I purchased a set of Firestone all-seasons and MR Two got around great in the snow.

I then purchased an 01S that had a set of tires that would need replacing before the upcoming winter. Since it was going to be an everyday car, I figured the AS tires would be the way to go. I bought a set of Kumho AS tires and found they weren't very good in the snow and ice. Luckily we didn't have a severe winter and I got by without sliding into anything. The next winter I bought a set of Blizzaks and had no problems. We had a lot of snow and ice that year.

I used the Blizzaks on my LE this last winter and they worked great with the traction control. We had a lot of icey weather and I had no problems starting up hills.

So what do I make of all of this? I think the AS tires worked on MR2 because they were 55 series tires vs the 40 & 35 series tires on the Box. Wider tires are less effective as a snow tire. Also, AS tires are a compromise. If you're a tire manufacturer building an AS tire for a Porsche, are you going to lean towards performance or snow ability? Obviously they're going to lean towards performance at the expense of bad weather ability because they don't want them blowing out at 155mph. If you're going to drive your Box in the winter, put snow tires on it.

I know you say it'll stay in the garage when there's bad weather. You also say you'll drive it in winter months. How accurate are your weather forecasters? I've gone to work in the morning with the forecast for a nice, clear day. When I look out the window at lunch time, it's snowing to beat the band. What do you do then? You don't want to get caught out and have to cross your fingers on your trip home.

I don't know how good either of the AS tires are that you're looking at. Maybe others have experience with them. My advice is to not spend your $$$ on AS tires for a Porsche, you'll not be happy with the results. Good luck.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:03 PM   #11
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My 2 cents! It looks like either category has better tires available then what you are currently running. The AS tires do give up some dry handling, a "tire rack" rating of 9.1 vs. 9.4, but rate just as well or better in the wet. The AS Pirelli's you linked didn't rate very high, but the Michelin's are promising. I have used Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS tires on an Acura RSX and thought they were a great performing tire, especially in the rain.
As far as your worries about braking performance, any of the tires you're considering are much better than what you have now. The AS's would actually be better if you get caught in the rain.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:58 PM   #12
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Lots of valid opinions. I too think for what you describe, the all-seasons are the best way to go. Surely, performance will not match the performance tires, but then, as you describe it, you're not trying to any turn fast laps.

Even with the M/S tires, and snow depth aside, the compunds used may not perform well in extremely cold weather. In moderately cold weather, you want to take it easy til the tires warm up, maybe 5-10 miles in Il temps.

Another issue, or compromise, will probably be tire width. A wider tire, even with a larger contact patch, is likely to have less grip in cold weather, especially on any snow patches. The skinnier the tire, the more weight/in on the contact patch which will translate to better grip, same in the rain, though less pronounced.

You may only drive on sunny winter days, but hard tires from the cold will offer much less grip. You might consider a set of winter tires - they'll be run fewer miles and so will last several seasons. It's an added expense, but everything being talked about here is a compromise of one sort or another.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:20 PM   #13
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You all make some really good points. Samson, thanks for the TireRack test links. Those were very helpful.

Stephen, you make a really good point regarding the comparison with my current tires. I think that is what this is going to come down to. Since my old tires are the only thing I have to compare to, do you guys think I will be disappointed by going with the UHPAS tires? I could definitely understand why it would be difficult to switch from PS2's to PS A/S's, but if the results of the PS A/S's are equal to or better than my current tires, I would be happy.

I have been reading reviews on TireRack all day, and I think I have ruled out the PZero Nero M&S's. I'm still not 100% sure that I want to go with the UHPAS tires, but the more I read, the more promising the Pilot Sport A/S's are sounding. As expected, every once in a while I come across a negative review (as with almost anything), but overall, the reviews are overwhelmingly positive. Many people even comment about how the tire performs more like a Summer tire than an A/S tire.

I did come across one review from a 911 owner:
"i bought these tires as the porsche "n" rated michelins i had would really beat you up when driving the car, they were michelin mxx3 i belive, the backs were worn down to the wear bars, could not find this model any more. so i called these were recommended to me. car rides nice and smooth and you do not fell every bump so bad like before, even my wife said they were nice, and for her to say that means a lot.
now the turn in might not be as sharp as with the n rated michelin, but its is very small trade off to the smooth ride, now do not underestimate this tire a small delay but will cut right in and go where you point the car with no tire noise. the side wall is really thick. the higher michelin pilot performance summer michelin has real thin walls.
if you shop for porsche tires for you 911 this is very important, you need a tire with a stiff side wall. that is why the Porsche N rated tires have this, N rated tires have a really thick wall to support that rear engine drive car and put the power down in a corner without the side wall slipping left or right, make sense.
the michelin all season tire is awesome. slight trade off for quick turn in but makes driving the car 10 times better and once you know how the turn in feels you can romp on her real good. hope this helps someone. i buy michelin for all my cars, you get the milage out of them and they give the best ride, the extra money is worth it to me."


I'm going to continue to sift through the reviews for this tire to see if I can find a few more from Porsche owners.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:21 PM   #14
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It's quite simple really. Buy summer tires if you know you will NEVER drive the car in below 40 degree weather and you will rarely drive in heavy rain and you will rarely drive when below 50 degrees. Otherwise buy all season tires.
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson
Not always true... for example, in a 50-0 test, here are some numbers:

RE960 Pole Position A/S: Dry- 87.8' Wet- 92.4'
Conti SportContact2: Dry- 88.6' Wet- 96.2'

The cars used were different (e46 vs e90 3-series), but the numbers are still valid for comparison.
Nevermind you pull those comparisons for 2 different vehicles that are weight differently and have different size rotors and pads.

Well guess what? Those tests were done in perfectly warm climate!

Summer & A/S tires freeze when the temperature gets cold. The rubber compound get hard & stiff and you'll loose significant amount of traction.

Snow tires are designed to work in freezing temperature, therefore will work at advertised at its optimal temp. range.

husker boxster:
I guess people like us have learned our lesson, I agree with what you said 100%.


And today I learned people actually put all-season tires on their Porsche. What's next, take your Porsche to Midas to do brake service to take advantage of their lifetime guarantee so you'll never have to pay for brake pads again??

Last edited by ekam; 10-01-2008 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekam
Nevermind you pull those comparisons for 2 different vehicles that are weight differently and have different size rotors and pads.

Well guess what? Those tests were done in perfectly warm climate!

Summer & A/S tires freeze when the temperature gets cold. The rubber compound get hard & stiff and you'll loose significant amount of traction.

Snow tires are designed to work in freezing temperature, therefore will work at advertised at its optimal temp. range.
When it comes down to it, both cars have very similar braking systems... but that isn't the comparison here. Both systems are more than capable of locking the wheels, yes? Both have very similar ABS setups. Both are within 100lbs of each other. What this shows is that there is little to no difference in the grip of these two particular tires when it comes to braking. Yes, it is a limited test, but it's just an example.

Regarding the freezing, true... tires freeze. All-season tires, however, have a lower freeze point, if you will.

That said, I agree that snows/summers are the way to go (which is why I have both Winter Sport 3Ds and Ecsta SPTs for the IS300). But, some people don't want to mess with or pay for that luxury, and that's where the all-season tire fits in.

Regarding the Midas comparison... it isn't like a Pilot A/S is a multi-mile grand touring tire from WalMart. It's a very high quality solution to this particular problem.
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:45 PM   #17
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It seems to me that tire wear should be of little concern to you because it's only going to be a weekend driver. So you'll put on something like 2-3000 miles per year? A 10,000 mile tire will last you 5 years.
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:42 AM   #18
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There is no such thing as a perfect tire

Further Thoughts here

But to summarize, if you want handling, you buy summer (above 40 degrees) UHP tires. You want all weather, you buy all-seasons UHP and you give up lots of dry handling, braking and ride. How much?

Well lets look at just one maker...Michelin...since they make the top rated summer UHP in a November 2007 Consumer Reports (page 58) comparison of 36 18" tires marketed as some form of UHP.

The summer PS2 had 3 excellent (5 of 5) and 3 very good (4 of 5) ratings in the dry and wet handling and braking categories. Their all season Pilot Sport A/S had 4 but also had only a fair (2 of 5) in dry and wet braking and a good (3 of 5) in dry handling.

A difference in 2 rating categories between 2 tires seems significant. The total of differences seems even more significant. Not fatal..because every tire is a compromise. But enough to really influence your decision.

Neither all season nor summer UHP tires are going to get you great tire mileage. A good pro-mileage alignment of the rear wheels will help.

I suggest reading the comparison (unfortunately, not on the web without a subscription...go to the library) and then think about your driving needs.

And whatever you do, don't drive a summer UHP much below 40 degrees. There is a beautiful '99 Boxster in the wrecking yards because I did.

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Old 10-02-2008, 11:02 AM   #19
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I have a set of Pirelli PZero Nero M&S on my c4 cab and I learned my lesson the hard way. I put it in a ditch two winters ago and have since gone to blizzaks for winter use.

My only complaint with the PZeros is that they seem to flat spot very easy and have a bit of vibration when the rubber is cold - as soon as you put some mileage on the tires, it goes away when the rubber gets up to temp.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson
Regarding the Midas comparison... it isn't like a Pilot A/S is a multi-mile grand touring tire from WalMart. It's a very high quality solution to this particular problem.
I found out yesterday that the reviews on TireRack can be sorted by tire AND vehicle. This made it MUCH easier to search the reviews on specific tires ONLY on Porsches.

Pilot Sport A/S:
High Quality Picture
13 Porsche reviews (8 raving, 3 good, 2 bad) It seems that the general consensus on this tire is that it blurs the line between a summer tire and an all-season tire. Based on the reviews, its hard to believe that this tire qualifies as an all-season tire, aside from the outstanding tread-wear.

I bought the Michelin Pilot A/S as replacements for OEM Conti fronts approximately 6 months ago. What a difference. Other people said this tire has proved to be a better tire than most high-performance summer tires theyve had. I found that hard to believe, however, I am shocked by just how good these tires are. Also, driving in the rain with the Contis was a white-knuckle experience. The Michelins are fantastic in the rain and in anything less than 4 inches of snow actually drive as well as my wifes front-wheel drive Volkswagen.

My current tire is Michelin Pilot Sport A/S and even though I only have 2,400 miles on them thus far, there is a MAJOR difference in how my Porsche 911drives, steers, brakes and the amount of control I seem to have, and NO signs of any wear as yet!!! It does not take a rocket scientist to immediately notice how well the car handles. I give it a 10 compared to either the Bridgestone Potenza RE750 or the SO2s that I would give a five in comparison. I have never experienced ANY tire which allowed for such steering control! Mind you, I do not go to the track with my Porsche, but I love driving my Porsche the way it is designed to be driven and I do not need a track to enjoy it! Perhaps, on the race track the other two tires were better for saving me a second in lap time, or a little better grip at speeds over 150 miles per hour, but then, if I were to go to the track with my car, I would choose specific tires for it and only it to fully enjoy this aspect of my Porsche.


PZero Nero M&S:
High Quality Picture
12 Porsche reviews (3 raving, 8 good, 1 bad) This tire also seems to be a good compromise between summer and all-season tires. Based on the reviews, it sounds like this tire is closer to the all-season category, but still has good performance.

They ride softer than the Michelins, handle and response to inputs like a champ, are extremely quiet, have attractive sidewalls, and forge ahead undaunted by wet roads. In short, these tires are on almost equal footing with the much softer Michelin Pilot Sport summer compound tires, but with the added confidence of an all season silicone compound.

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